Education and Men without Work
nationalaffairs.com
Education and Men without Work
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Re: Education and Men without Work
#2> but they nevertheless suggest that changes in family structure had a powerful and adverse impact on male work rates and labor-force participation rates...
This article seems to assume that changes in family structures are a cause of men not working. I see no mention that it could actually be an effect of that. Who's gonna want to marry (let alone have kids with) a man who is unemployed and isn't even looking for work?
Re: Education and Men without Work
#3>”The fall in participation for prime-age men has largely been concentrated among those with a high school degree or less... …”
What would a high school diploma or 2 year college give them that would enable them to get higher skilled jobs?
I’d be inclined to think that rather than needing “GE” (general Ed) they need vocational type trading that focuses on making them skilled in a particular area (no, not coding). That might have to be complemented with a few other skills that allow them to integrate into the workforce (what it means to be dependable, how to add value, etc., rather than “show up” which is half of it, but not all of it).
Re: Education and Men without Work
#4>”The fall in participation for prime-age men has largely been concentrated among those with a high school degree or less... …” What would a high school diploma or 2 year college give them that would enable them to get higher skilled jobs? I’d be inclined to think that rather than needing “GE” (general Ed) they need vocational type trading that focuses on making them skilled in a particular area (no, not coding). Tha…
“What would a high school diploma or 2 year college give them that would enable them to get higher skilled jobs?”
When I look at programming jobs you pretty much need a college degree to even get a company to talk to you. I wouldn’t be too surprised if there were other jobs where having 2 years of college or a high school degree is required to be even considered. There may be exceptions but in general there is a trend for employers to require certain education levels if it makes sense or not.
Re: Education and Men without Work
#5The article is long on detail and short on suggestions (which is understandable). However, the suggestions it does make are not obviously going to work. The men illustrated in the article do not seem incapable of work, but rather disinterested. Vocational training isn't going to fix the fact that the government benefits the article cited allows the men to stay at home playing video games all day. Most people (but especially men, given the propensity of the male psyche to become dependent on dopamine) would rather take the short term thrill of continuous dopamine hits provided by video games than working to make a living.
Who can really blame them? For the vast majority of history, the main impetus for men to seek status of any kind is to impress women and provide a legacy for families. As the article mentions, men who are cut off from each of these simply stop participating in the kinds of behavior that make modern society possible. Enabled by the preponderance of easily accessible government money, drugs, etc, these men, lacking any legacy or dependents to speak of, would rather bide their time hedonistically. Some, realizing their situation, choose not to bide their time at all (look at the rise of middle aged male suicides).
Unfortunately, the two causes the article cites (dissolution of family structure and rise of single male households) are unaddressed. This is understandable as even mentioning these problems in high society today would be frowned upon. The article admits this, but, the writer, being part of the same society he's criticizing, falls into the same trap.
Re: Education and Men without Work
#6>”The fall in participation for prime-age men has largely been concentrated among those with a high school degree or less... …” What would a high school diploma or 2 year college give them that would enable them to get higher skilled jobs? I’d be inclined to think that rather than needing “GE” (general Ed) they need vocational type trading that focuses on making them skilled in a particular area (no, not coding). Tha…
It's not that it provides any particular skills, but rather that it acts as an indicator that someone can take direction and instruction. If an employer has 100 applicants, half of which have a high school degree or less, then they're just going to toss those applications and interview the other half simply as a matter of cost/time savings and risk reduction.
Re: Education and Men without Work
#7> but they nevertheless suggest that changes in family structure had a powerful and adverse impact on male work rates and labor-force participation rates... This article seems to assume that changes in family structures are a cause of men not working. I see no mention that it could actually be an effect of that. Who's gonna want to marry (let alone have kids with) a man who is unemployed and isn't even looking for wo…
No one marries middle aged men. Well... that's hyperbole. Historically, most men would marry in their 20s. This article says that middle aged men have given up working. Those some men could have been ambitious (or ambitious enough) 20 somethings who -- due to cultural changes -- never quite married and settled down.
That is to say, it is not entirely clear that an apathy problem among old men is the cause of declining marriage rates, given that most people marry well before the age of the men in the article.
Re: Education and Men without Work
#8It's interesting to see the contrast in discussion with other posts that talk about how we need to get rid of useless jobs. Those posts normally talk about how we need to make it so it's possible to just live off government benefits instead of spending our lives working, meanwhile this submission calls it a national crisis when men are leaving the workforce and choosing to live off of government benefits. I don't think people choosing to leave the workforce is necessarily a bad thing, but there should be a way for them to find a sense of purpose or community, if that's what they desire.
Re: Education and Men without Work
#9> but they nevertheless suggest that changes in family structure had a powerful and adverse impact on male work rates and labor-force participation rates... This article seems to assume that changes in family structures are a cause of men not working. I see no mention that it could actually be an effect of that. Who's gonna want to marry (let alone have kids with) a man who is unemployed and isn't even looking for wo…
>Needless to say, the relationship between family structure and prime-age male labor-force participation is complex, with causation arrows pointing both ways. Yet on balance, the net effect of such changes appears to have been a withdrawal of male labor from the workforce — a "supply-side effect," and a major one.
Re: Education and Men without Work
#10As unpopular it may be to say such a politically incorrect thing (admitting this is a generalization, and all the caveats that come with it) --
Men generally have the biological need to go do and wander and discover things. I don't know whether it's hormones or what. Debate all you like elsewhere (I'm not trying to debate that point here).
My point is that when they don't get an outlet to do this, they cause trouble. Idle hands are the tools of the devil. They get in trouble, they cause trouble. They create things, but also get into trouble.
And a society that doesn't provide outlets for working-aged males to go out and do things is inviting trouble.
What I observe about the US is that we are making the cost of employing people so high that we have no incremental way to put people at the low end of the skills ladder (or at the high end of aging out) to even minimal use -- and the only way to get even a low level purpose in life is to be employed by a company that goes through very constrained legal and regulatory calculus to employ someone.
In other countries, people who are unemployed can:
-- Be community volunteers next to government workers to augment local capabilities
-- Be ticket takers on buses, trains
-- Be part time informal labor / delivery people
-- Be "shop minders" who aren't fully employees but help when needed
All these things for even a paltry wage, but purpose in life. In other countries, you notice immediately the presence of such people.
But we in the US have foreclosed the ability for people to fill these roles. I guess the last time we did this was with the WPA. The very rules we have in place to protect people (and claimed benefit of workplace standards, etc) prevent many at the bottom from being useful.
It's to our societal peril, as we can see lately.