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Why standard Indonesian is not spoken throughout Indonesia

bbc.com

1–10 of 163 posts

Re: Why standard Indonesian is not spoken throughout Indonesia

#2
It makes sense that the language is too young to have evolved to be a means of communication.

I remember being surprised that the phenomenon of colonial rulers of a country imposing their own language on the population (occurred with the British wherever they went) was not true for Indonesia. The Dutch seemed to have kept their language out of reach for most of the local population. There being no translation for a lot of words, especially legal terms, from Dutch to local languages, a lot of Dutch words ended up being part of Bahasa Indonesia. This could be more cause for it to feel like a foreign language.

Re: Why standard Indonesian is not spoken throughout Indonesia

#3
Claims about the relative simplicity or complexity of different languages are rarely grounded in actual linguistic evidence. Languages comprise so many parts that it's not even clear what the basis of comparison could be: is English, a language with highly restricted word order but without grammatical case marked on most nouns, more complex than Russian, a language with comparatively free word order but a highly articulated case system? Who can say?

With that in mind, the statements about Bahasa Indonesian being simpler or more rigid than other languages are more like social or cultural judgments than bonafide linguistic facts.

Re: Why standard Indonesian is not spoken throughout Indonesia

#4
post #3

Claims about the relative simplicity or complexity of different languages are rarely grounded in actual linguistic evidence. Languages comprise so many parts that it's not even clear what the basis of comparison could be: is English, a language with highly restricted word order but without grammatical case marked on most nouns, more complex than Russian, a language with comparatively free word order but a highly arti…

Would a polyglot with a linguistics background be someone with enough credentials to make comparisons though? I agree though that it's hard to have a baseline or even quantify simplicity/complexity in languages.

Re: Why standard Indonesian is not spoken throughout Indonesia

#5
People in America really don't appreciate the blessing of having a single (nearly) uniformly spoken language. Being able to drop in anywhere in a country of 300+ million people and being able to converse with the locals (not just communicate, but convey your deepest thoughts)--it's a benefit the vast majority of people in the world simply do not have.

This article touches on something I've been thinking a lot about lately--the deepness of language. I think people have this vision of a polyglot future with automatic computer translation. I think that's quite short sighted and misses how deep language goes. My mom, who was born in Bangladesh, learned English in school and moved to the U.S. as an adult. Though she has been in the U.S. for thirty years, she will never be able to communicate in English with the level of sophistication she does in Bengali. Indeed, even we (her family who know better) perceive her as someone capable of a limited range of thinking as a result of the limited range of what she can express verbally in English.

All that resulted in quite a shock for us when she started using Facebook. On Facebook, she can sit and mull things over and think about what she wants to say. So we'll be taken aback by her posts quoting Dostoevsky or whatever (she was a voracious reader of classic literature translated into Bengali). It's a stark example how hobbling it can be to be forced to communicate in a language that is not one's own (an idea the article delves into). It also makes me skeptical of any idea that we can establish meaningful communications built on automated translation.

Re: Why standard Indonesian is not spoken throughout Indonesia

#6
post #3

Claims about the relative simplicity or complexity of different languages are rarely grounded in actual linguistic evidence. Languages comprise so many parts that it's not even clear what the basis of comparison could be: is English, a language with highly restricted word order but without grammatical case marked on most nouns, more complex than Russian, a language with comparatively free word order but a highly arti…

> Claims about the relative simplicity or complexity of different languages are rarely grounded in actual linguistic evidence.

I don't think that's justified in the case of Bahasa Indonesia, or indeed any language which is more widely used as a second language than as a first. And it's pretty much a dialect of Malay, which also has a long history as a second language used for trade.

Re: Why standard Indonesian is not spoken throughout Indonesia

#7
post #5

People in America really don't appreciate the blessing of having a single (nearly) uniformly spoken language. Being able to drop in anywhere in a country of 300+ million people and being able to converse with the locals (not just communicate , but convey your deepest thoughts)--it's a benefit the vast majority of people in the world simply do not have. This article touches on something I've been thinking a lot about…

Isn't Mandarin Chinese understood on all China, from Xinjiang to Canton?

Re: Why standard Indonesian is not spoken throughout Indonesia

#8
If anybody would like to get the basics of it, here some Indonesians Natives willing to do conversation Bahasa / English conversation exchange:

https://lessons.coffeestrap.com/learn/Indonesian

Disclaimer: it is a language exchange sideproject I've been working on for a while (yes I know it needs some UX polishing work).

Re: Why standard Indonesian is not spoken throughout Indonesia

#9
post #3

Claims about the relative simplicity or complexity of different languages are rarely grounded in actual linguistic evidence. Languages comprise so many parts that it's not even clear what the basis of comparison could be: is English, a language with highly restricted word order but without grammatical case marked on most nouns, more complex than Russian, a language with comparatively free word order but a highly arti…

I don't quite understand your comment in relation with the article. The main subject isn't the complexity or simplicity of the language but rather that it's not effectively used by the population at large which makes it a relatively inefficient tool for communication. He mentions that the language "has fewer words than most languages" but that's not his main point.

This text is also clearly not meant as a treatise of linguistics about Bahasa Indonesia, it's more of a cultural trivia piece so I don't think it's really fair to criticize the lack of cold hard linguistic facts. It's also an important piece of information for anybody considering learning the language, as it turns out that it might not be as useful as one might guess even if you plan to live in Indonesia.

I do challenge your assertion that "claims about the relative simplicity or complexity of different languages are rarely grounded in actual linguistic evidence". It's true that it's very hard to judge the "absolute" difficulty of a language because everybody has very profound cultural and linguistic biases. It's also true that it's not generally a very useful information, I don't know which of Italian or Vietnamese is objectively harder but I know that as a speaker of French and English I'd probably have an easier time learning the former than the latter.

That being said I think if you're familiar enough with the languages you're "rating" you can come up with a pretty decent classification of "absolute" difficulty. For instance I'd personally consider Portuguese to be objectively harder than Spanish, because while they're extremely similar languages Portuguese does have an objectively more complex phonology and slightly trickier grammar. I would also say that French is "absolutely" more difficult than Italian because of the more complex spelling and phonology.

Chinese is widely considered a difficult language, partly because it's tonal (and you could say that's cultural bias) but also because of its very complex writing system. I don't think anybody could say that the differences in difficulty between written Spanish and written Chinese can only be attributed to cultural judgement.

Re: Why standard Indonesian is not spoken throughout Indonesia

#10
post #7
post #5

People in America really don't appreciate the blessing of having a single (nearly) uniformly spoken language. Being able to drop in anywhere in a country of 300+ million people and being able to converse with the locals (not just communicate , but convey your deepest thoughts)--it's a benefit the vast majority of people in the world simply do not have. This article touches on something I've been thinking a lot about…

Isn't Mandarin Chinese understood on all China, from Xinjiang to Canton?

Mandarin is about as pervasive in China as English is in Europe. The USA is definitely more linguistically homogeneous.
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