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Leaving .net

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Re: Leaving .net

#2
There were already open source MVC web frameworks and an army of .net developers who could have collaborated to make them great but nothing much happened.

He is lamenting that the .NET community didn't embrace the pioneering MVC frameworks from the OS community, but waited for Microsoft to deliver its own "blessed" framework.

Here is what he is forgetting: Economics. A good chunk of .NET developers are not using the system for the love of hacking. No. These people want to learn marketable skills and get/keep jobs. Whatever MS pushes out is what the market will buy, and hire for. What do you think killed Borland? Certainly not the lack of excellent quality products. Rather, their incompatibility with Microsoft. Even if your engineering is superior to Microsoft's, you can't afford to break rank, since the market will not follow your lead.

I went to a D.C. area meeting of early .NET adopters, a group of hardcore MS-specialists working for gur'ment. One of the organizers had a fat .NET book on the table, which he slapped with his palm three times and said: "Gentlemen, this is where the money is at". You could have taken me to a brothel afterwards and wouldn't have felt dirtier.

.NET is nice and you can do pretty things with it, but corporate platforms are first and foremost careers and cash-cows for people. The broke mofos are out there hacking on GHC and SBCL.

Re: Leaving .net

#3
post #2

There were already open source MVC web frameworks and an army of .net developers who could have collaborated to make them great but nothing much happened. He is lamenting that the .NET community didn't embrace the pioneering MVC frameworks from the OS community, but waited for Microsoft to deliver its own "blessed" framework. Here is what he is forgetting: Economics. A good chunk of .NET developers are not using the…

I presume GHC is the Glasgow Haskell Compiler and not Guarded Horn Clauses?

Re: Leaving .net

#4
post #3
post #2

There were already open source MVC web frameworks and an army of .net developers who could have collaborated to make them great but nothing much happened. He is lamenting that the .NET community didn't embrace the pioneering MVC frameworks from the OS community, but waited for Microsoft to deliver its own "blessed" framework. Here is what he is forgetting: Economics. A good chunk of .NET developers are not using the…

I presume GHC is the Glasgow Haskell Compiler and not Guarded Horn Clauses?

Yes.

Re: Leaving .net

#5
post #2

There were already open source MVC web frameworks and an army of .net developers who could have collaborated to make them great but nothing much happened. He is lamenting that the .NET community didn't embrace the pioneering MVC frameworks from the OS community, but waited for Microsoft to deliver its own "blessed" framework. Here is what he is forgetting: Economics. A good chunk of .NET developers are not using the…

Not only that, if you are a startup that wants to do b2b and you want to sell a product in to that market that will have a tight connection to stuff your clients already run you will be required to use .NET by your customers. Unless you like uphill battles that's the way you'll go eventually.

It sucks, but it is the reality of the business environment, web side stuff that is abstracted through some HTTP interface you can build in whatever you please but good luck trying to sneak your locally hosted rails app past the Microsoft only mentality prevalent in plenty of businesses.

Re: Leaving .net

#6
Great paragraph at the end of the article: (emphasis mine)

    To those who want to be part of a vibrant community of passionate developers
    crafting new and innovative solutions, start hanging out with people who
    *aren’t tied to a particular language or framework*. Get to your local user
    groups. All of them. Get a github account and start forking the hell out of
    everything!

Re: Leaving .net

#7
Out of curiosity, are people building their own for-fun-projects using .net or even Java? All I seem to hear are people using Python, Ruby and Javascript.

Re: Leaving .net

#8
A sizeable chunk of .NET development happens in the corporate/enterprise world. That sort of environment isn't interested in collaboration, open source, etc.--they're interested in the guaranteed support the MS stack provides, and the idiot-proof web basics provided by ASP/webforms/MVC.

If shit hits the fan in the .NET stack for a big enough corporate project, someone in the office can phone/email MS and get support for their problem. If a bug is found in the stack itself, it won't languish unsolved in bug trackers for years, like many OSS bugs do. MS will probably fix it in their next cycle, and the corporate devs won't have to waste their time figuring out the nuts and bolts of the stack to fix the bugs themselves, like in OSS.

So I think it's this requirement for enterprise support that keeps MS from accepting OSS patches and locking everyone in--it would be too much work to track, validate, and test 3rd party patches when they can just fix it themselves with their own devs and keep going to sleep on their piles of money surrounded by many beautiful women.

Unfortunately this sort of view isn't very compatible with the indie developer ideal, or the ideals the author holds--which might one of the many reasons why you see so much Rails/PHP development in the non-enterprise space.

Re: Leaving .net

#9
I can't agree more with the observations on MVC. It's really a symptom of .Net and Microsoft locking in the vast majority of inexperienced users with overly abstract components.

Developers fresh out of college who were taught .Net in school and get a job in it become experts at Partial PostBacks and Code Behinds and binding data to the latest whiz-bang GridDataAwesomeControlForTheWin.

The problem I've seen time and again is that they have no idea how this is implemented. Ask a green .Net developer about the ViewState lifecycle and see if they know how that really works.

I don't mean to disparage all .Net developers or to try and say that being a .Net developer precludes you from ever understanding how these things work. I am trying to say that for a lot of people for whom coding is their 9-5 way to make money, they will never look behind that curtain to better understand their craft. They will believe that Microsoft invented Model View Controller, they will only get exposed to technology at the pace Microsoft cares to expose them to it, and that's a shame.

There are probably a lot of 9-5ers who could have that switch flipped and go from code monkey to craftsmen, but they are stuck doing WebForms and have never really got bitten by the curiosity bug in the face of the stale joyless Microsoft platform.

Other platforms can be just as dangerous, even RoR has a preponderance of gems that solve common problems in web development that there are probably RoR web devs that have never thought about have you would implement authentication on the web, just slap :acts_as_authenticator_unicorns_rule on the model. It just seems to be a much more pernicious problem in the .Net community and one that grew up out of trying to hide Web Programming and make it Windows Programming rendered in HTML.

Re: Leaving .net

#10
post #2

There were already open source MVC web frameworks and an army of .net developers who could have collaborated to make them great but nothing much happened. He is lamenting that the .NET community didn't embrace the pioneering MVC frameworks from the OS community, but waited for Microsoft to deliver its own "blessed" framework. Here is what he is forgetting: Economics. A good chunk of .NET developers are not using the…

Why making money with programming makes you feel dirty?
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