Catalan referendum: Voting begins amid police crackdown
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Re: Catalan referendum: Voting begins amid police crackdown
#2It's frankly disgraceful that the Spanish state has turned to violence to suppress the democratic process.
Re: Catalan referendum: Voting begins amid police crackdown
#3It's frankly disgraceful that the Spanish state has turned to violence to suppress the democratic process.
It's not democratic, it's illegal and the justice system has ordered its dismantling. Think what you will, disagree with the law if you want but at this point the government is forced to apply the law. They don't have a choice.
Re: Catalan referendum: Voting begins amid police crackdown
#4That's how you convince people to stay with you
Re: Catalan referendum: Voting begins amid police crackdown
#5It's frankly disgraceful that the Spanish state has turned to violence to suppress the democratic process.
It's not democratic, it's illegal and the justice system has ordered its dismantling. Think what you will, disagree with the law if you want but at this point the government is forced to apply the law. They don't have a choice.
You're making a fundamental mistake in conflating legality with democratic will.
Re: Catalan referendum: Voting begins amid police crackdown
#6It's frankly disgraceful that the Spanish state has turned to violence to suppress the democratic process.
It's not democratic, it's illegal and the justice system has ordered its dismantling. Think what you will, disagree with the law if you want but at this point the government is forced to apply the law. They don't have a choice.
I'm not disagreeing, but just a semantic argument here. The referendum is absolutely democratic. But it is also illegal under the Spanish constitution. The problem is that the Spanish constitution and the judge's interpretation (which is straightforward but unfortunate) patently would disallow self determination through a referendum, which to me is democracy in its purest form. The only reason it's illegal is because the law is undemocratic.
I agree the Spanish central government seemingly had no choice but escalation. But that escalation is tragic and will only make Catalonia's independence inevitable, whereas it was not at all clear cut before this.
Re: Catalan referendum: Voting begins amid police crackdown
#7It's frankly disgraceful that the Spanish state has turned to violence to suppress the democratic process.
It's not democratic, it's illegal and the justice system has ordered its dismantling. Think what you will, disagree with the law if you want but at this point the government is forced to apply the law. They don't have a choice.
I agreed until "forced to apply the law". Many laws are changed after first the approval goes away, then the enforcement is phased out, and only then the actual act is written. Law is very often applied in the context of current situation / people involved. Government is not forced to do anything really.
Also, the law most often mentioned - Spanish constitution - mentions that Spain cannot be divided. This is just a referendum. The goal is the division of course. But the referendum itself is not changing anything.
Re: Catalan referendum: Voting begins amid police crackdown
#8It's frankly disgraceful that the Spanish state has turned to violence to suppress the democratic process.
It's not democratic, it's illegal and the justice system has ordered its dismantling. Think what you will, disagree with the law if you want but at this point the government is forced to apply the law. They don't have a choice.
To say that a region trying to forge independence is illegal is true by definition because wherever you are the law will enshrine the status quo, but it's not a meaningful statement.
And to say that there's no choice but to apply the law isn't true, when it comes to questions this big the system of: make law=> judicial system interprets=> police enforce breaks down, because it's a political question not a legal question. Eg. how Uber in London is implicitly political, it's too big to be held by courts and keep politicians out. Spanish politicians absolutely had some leeway in how they dealt with this.
Re: Catalan referendum: Voting begins amid police crackdown
#9Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's not democratic, it's illegal and the justice system has ordered its dismantling. Think what you will, disagree with the law if you want but at this point the government is forced to apply the law. They don't have a choice.
I'm not disagreeing, but just a semantic argument here. The referendum is absolutely democratic. But it is also illegal under the Spanish constitution. The problem is that the Spanish constitution and the judge's interpretation (which is straightforward but unfortunate) patently would disallow self determination through a referendum, which to me is democracy in its purest form. The only reason it's illegal is because…
There will be people here with more knowledge about international constitutional law but I’m pretty sure almost every state has rules in place to prevent it from disintegrating. Otherwise, what would stop oneself to declare one’s own little piece of land as independent (with yourself voting for it) and stop paying taxes?
Re: Catalan referendum: Voting begins amid police crackdown
#10It's frankly disgraceful that the Spanish state has turned to violence to suppress the democratic process.
It's not democratic, it's illegal and the justice system has ordered its dismantling. Think what you will, disagree with the law if you want but at this point the government is forced to apply the law. They don't have a choice.
Yes, it's also too convenient for them to even consider changing an unethical law.