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Ask HN: Does anyone else think Michael O. Church is a hero?

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Ask HN: Does anyone else think Michael O. Church is a hero?

#1
Obviously, I'm using a throwaway account, but I have a 12000+ karma real one and will prove it privately if it becomes necessary.

I've met him, and I worked with him 4 years ago. This is a man who, if he'd kept his mouth shut, could have worked anywhere, climbed up the ranks quickly. Unfortunately, he has an OCD focus on social justice, and was willing to risk his career for what he believed in, and he's been made into a villain figure for some reason, just because he said something harsh about Marissa Mayer and didn't like his experience at Google.

Since then, he's been attacked from all sides and a number of people have tried to erase him. I don't know if YC was behind the Quora ban (I actually like Y Combinator) but it's obvious that something fucked up happened.

Is he a bit arrogant? Sure, although less so in person. Does he cultivate an obnoxious internet personality? Yeah, to some degree. But he's also insightful and, unlike most people who just care about making money, he actually cares about the direction that our industry is taking.

Am I the only one who sees this?

Re: Ask HN: Does anyone else think Michael O. Church is a hero?

#4

I can't hold the following two thoughts in my head at the same time, lest the resulting paradox would consume the universe: 1) "OCD focus on social justice" 2) "What a quente" as applied to Marissa Mayer.

I'm not saying that he's perfect. I know him pretty well, and he can be impulsive as well as liberal with profanity.

If you read the context, he certainly did not intend to use "cunt" (which I've heard him use for men) as a gender slur. It seems, if anything, that he used the bowdlerized word in an attempt to avoid unnecessary offense/triggering that might be attached to the word "cunt".

Of course, he never got to defend himself, because he was banned and Gack subsequently tried to rouse a lynch mob against MOC. (Emails were sent around the Valley. Gack wanted a PC lynch mob, but no one really bit.) Those pleas were met mostly with yawns, because most of us feel that Church is far more of a feminist than Gack is.

Re: Ask HN: Does anyone else think Michael O. Church is a hero?

#7
post #4

I can't hold the following two thoughts in my head at the same time, lest the resulting paradox would consume the universe: 1) "OCD focus on social justice" 2) "What a quente" as applied to Marissa Mayer.

I'm not saying that he's perfect. I know him pretty well, and he can be impulsive as well as liberal with profanity. If you read the context, he certainly did not intend to use "cunt" (which I've heard him use for men) as a gender slur. It seems, if anything, that he used the bowdlerized word in an attempt to avoid unnecessary offense/triggering that might be attached to the word "cunt". Of course, he never got to de…

"he certainly did not intend to use ... (which I've heard him use for men) as a gender slur."

It doesn't work like that. If you walk around and use well-known slurs for homosexuals and African Americans, but then say "yea, but I also apply them to straight white people, so clearly I don't use them as orientation and race slurs", you will become a pariah just the same.

I don't know anything about the emails that you mention, but then again, I am not really "plugged in". My e-mail is in my profile, feel free to forward them.

Re: Ask HN: Does anyone else think Michael O. Church is a hero?

#8
post #5

I agree, but he needs to chill a bit. He really does come off as someone twisted by his experience.

Despite what one might think, he's well aware of the "insane" reputation of his internet persona, and of the effect that his activism has had (and continues to have) on his health. He's been looking for a replacement, in the job of "conscience of the technology industry", for at least two years. For obvious reasons, no one wants the job.

Knowing him and having seen some of the documents first-hand, he's seen some crazy shit. Stuff you can't talk about without sounding nuts, because it's just not believable except when the proof is right there. PTSD is not out of the realm of possibility.

Re: Ask HN: Does anyone else think Michael O. Church is a hero?

#9
I like Michael O'Church. His comments are always interesting and insightful.

The world is full of people doing bad things all the time, you and I included.

I think he could write in a way that don't insinuate people who do bad things are bad people. He writes as if people are intentionally greedy, or they intentionally take advantage of software engineers, just because they can get wealthy, and for some reason, that's bad. I think it's the judgement that alienates him from other people. (In my very humble opinion)

He blames these "power figures" in the tech industry for the woes of software engineers. But what we've got to understand is, it's normal to take advantage of circumstances to enrich oneself. It's par for the course. There's nothing bad about the people doing it better than everyone else. It's like stuff is on sale on the supermarket and there's nothing unethical about taking advantage of that sale to get a few more milk cartons in your fridge. It's not people's obligation to remove suffering from the world around them.

But where he's insightful and interesting is, he makes me think, what is it I do that lets these people have all this power[1]. These people, if they're doing such things, are doing it because they're being enabled. Am I the enabler?

If people are being taking advantage of here, it's because they allow it in the first place. The tech industry wouldn't even exist without us.

[1] For example, letting Facebook decide for me what news I see, or working for a startup without demanding equity, or working in a company where there's no one to learn from. "They" can't do these "things" to me without my participation in the first place! The power is right here in my chair, not there in Facebook's office or in the startup's board of directors.

Re: Ask HN: Does anyone else think Michael O. Church is a hero?

#10
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying that he's perfect. I know him pretty well, and he can be impulsive as well as liberal with profanity. If you read the context, he certainly did not intend to use "cunt" (which I've heard him use for men) as a gender slur. It seems, if anything, that he used the bowdlerized word in an attempt to avoid unnecessary offense/triggering that might be attached to the word "cunt". Of course, he never got to de…

"he certainly did not intend to use ... (which I've heard him use for men) as a gender slur." It doesn't work like that. If you walk around and use well-known slurs for homosexuals and African Americans, but then say "yea, but I also apply them to straight white people, so clearly I don't use them as orientation and race slurs", you will become a pariah just the same. I don't know anything about the emails that you m…

He's an east coast liberal. He comes from a social circle where it is unthinkable to insult someone because of their gender, but where the words "cunt" and "fuck" are barely considered profanity.

Given that the tech industry is teeming with misogynists and uncultured mouth-breathers, he probably shouldn't have used any word that even looked like "cunt". That was stupid on his part. No disagreement there.

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