The German reference letter system
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The German reference letter system
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Re: The German reference letter system
#2Yes, this is a very weird peculiarity if working in Germany, for German companies.
There's only one thing I might add. If you're working in tech and/or in smaller companies, there's a good chance nobody will ever ask for this, even less than for university degree papers, etc - but in many other fields or if you're planning to join a big corporation, I'd still suggest to get one when you leave.
Re: The German reference letter system
#3In my trade, people usually only resign after they have another job offer (as in contract in their hands). I guess if I was in Germany it would circumvent this reference system at least for the current employer?
Re: The German reference letter system
#4In my trade, people usually only resign after they have another job offer (as in contract in their hands). I guess if I was in Germany it would circumvent this reference system at least for the current employer?
The employer has 6 months after you leave to give you the letter, so generally you can't really be expected to have that one.
Re: The German reference letter system
#5I prefer the reference letter system over the personal references system popular in the US because the letter decouples you from former employers.
They don't get calls every time you're in talks with a recruiter. The amount of information that's passed along is standardized (even if it's a weird standard, but see below) and better controlled.
It's possible to request interim reports, and when doing it semi-regularly (every two years, say), it doesn't provide signal to current employers about you intending to leave or not.
As for the peculiar language, that was quite the talk in the 90s when this scheme was "uncovered" by the media. By now, people generally know what to expect, while HR is typically aware if a letter is written "in code" or not (and have no problem if it's not).
More than the "code", these letters can also refer to more concrete traits, so the best course of action with the reference letter is often to write it yourself, have your manager sign off on it and get the HR stamp of approval. That way it states what _you_ think is important, not what the manager sees, or the even more remote HR department.
(source: have German HR folks in the family who explained the reference letter business to me, starting when the "code" fluff flared up in the media for the first time. also did some clerical work in HR in the distant past)
Re: The German reference letter system
#6In my experience, most employers are very reluctant to write reference letters at all. A common practice is to write the reference letter yourself when you leave the job and just get a signature for it by your ex-boss.
Re: The German reference letter system
#7If you're interested in hiring German developers on your team, leading with the fact you're not looking for someone with Doctor Professor in their title, you don't need apostilled copies of every certificate since kindergarten, and you don't need codified reference letters for every job will expand your market considerably.
I've placed several Germans in London development positions now, many of whom were surprised when I told them how little I wanted other than for them to answer some technical questions and to see if they got on with the team.
As the German market loses solid people to markets which aren't so incredibly uptight, the German market will change.
Re: The German reference letter system
#8In my trade, people usually only resign after they have another job offer (as in contract in their hands). I guess if I was in Germany it would circumvent this reference system at least for the current employer?
Resigning only with a new job secured is also common in Germany.
That's what interim reports are for (that employees have just the same right to as for the "real" reference letters), although they may tip off the current employer.
Re: The German reference letter system
#9This goes a lot deeper than the article seems to suggest. There was an quiz on spiegel a while back that went in depth into the hidden meanings that only HR experts can extract from these letters (http://www.spiegel.de/unispiegel/jobundberuf/arbeitszeugnis-...). My wife who works in HR managed to get them all correct, but I would have missed a lot of the explicit meanings inside the numerous formulations.
In general these letters can state things such as:
1. this person has no manners
2. the person is an alcoholic
3. the person is an arrogant diva, etc
Some more for those who can read German (http://karrierebibel.de/arbeitszeugnis-formulierungen-bewert...)
As someone who has worked in both the US and German systems though, I actually prefer the German one for the reasons pgeorgi mentions - its like having a certificate that proves what you did and how well you did it after you complete any job, then regardless of whatever happens to an employer (they could go bankrupt, your boss could leave, etc) you still have that certificate that proves you did what you say you did.
Re: The German reference letter system
#10If you're interested in hiring German developers on your team, leading with the fact you're not looking for someone with Doctor Professor in their title, you don't need apostilled copies of every certificate since kindergarten, and you don't need codified reference letters for every job will expand your market considerably. I've placed several Germans in London development positions now, many of whom were surprised w…
Would be really interested in your opinion on the German market. Do you see a trend of more and more solid tech people leaving the country?
I'm a German working for SV companies remotely for quite some time because of the situation here (very conservative both internally as well as product-wise, low salaries for non-management). I see most good people I worked with in Germany leaving for opportunities in London, Amsterdam or SV and was wondering if it just feels like that or if there is more to it.
My opinion on the topic is that those letters feel really odd and I stopped asking for one a few jobs ago. That being said, at my current job (SF Startup) I was asked for 'references' which was something new to me as well and it felt similarly weird and outdated. I don't think either are very useful to any party and IMO not worth the effort.