Judge Deals a Blow to N.S.A. Data Collection Program
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Re: Judge Deals a Blow to N.S.A. Data Collection Program
#2Due to the nature of such surveillance - there is little oversight over what is actually being done. Which means there is no promise anything is being done. As a citizen, is there any way for me to know for certain or must I have faith my government is working how it claims to work? I'll explain...
[Begin conspiracy theory]If a judge marks it unconstitutional or not or forbids them from doing it doesn't necessarily mean that the NSA stops. That only works if you have faith in your government.
A government set to maintain its own power, after being outed by a whistleblower, would seek to save face. Have judges "ban acts of surveillance" and distribute that knowledge to the general public while secretly maintaining the actions behind the curtains. With a smaller, more loyal/contained group to prevent future whistleblowers. [/End conspiracy theory]
If it is found that the NSA continued to keep/records phone records after being "forbidden from doing so" - who would be held responsible? Would it be the head of the NSA? Head of the specific surveillance department in charge of the program? How would they be "punished"? How would the government insure it doesn't happen again? Who provides oversight of the NSA, outside of the NSA?
Re: Judge Deals a Blow to N.S.A. Data Collection Program
#3Due to the nature of such surveillance - there is little oversight over what is actually being done. Which means there is no promise anything is being done. As a citizen, is there any way for me to know for certain or must I have faith my government is working how it claims to work? I'll explain... [Begin conspiracy theory]If a judge marks it unconstitutional or not or forbids them from doing it doesn't necessarily m…
The fact that to date nobody has been held responsible lends a great deal of credibility to your conspiracy theory. I'd be highly surprised if they were upset at what they did, I think they're mostly upset at being caught.
Re: Judge Deals a Blow to N.S.A. Data Collection Program
#4Due to the nature of such surveillance - there is little oversight over what is actually being done. Which means there is no promise anything is being done. As a citizen, is there any way for me to know for certain or must I have faith my government is working how it claims to work? I'll explain... [Begin conspiracy theory]If a judge marks it unconstitutional or not or forbids them from doing it doesn't necessarily m…
2nd Ammendment probably existed for such cases but in modern times it is probably ineffective in its letter.
We can however keep the spirit of 2nd amendment and fight against NSA by actively creating incentives for those people who are willing to shut down NSA. For example a candidate like Rand Paul should get enough support. It is not even necessary that this candidate should win, but once politicians realize that there is vote issue to be exploited they will bite the bait.
It is remarkable that the government wants to spy teenagers sharing nudes but cant prosecute Hillary Clinton who seem to have actually put sensitive information at danger.
Re: Judge Deals a Blow to N.S.A. Data Collection Program
#5Due to the nature of such surveillance - there is little oversight over what is actually being done. Which means there is no promise anything is being done. As a citizen, is there any way for me to know for certain or must I have faith my government is working how it claims to work? I'll explain... [Begin conspiracy theory]If a judge marks it unconstitutional or not or forbids them from doing it doesn't necessarily m…
James Clapper's congressional perjury will probably make the history books as an example of modern corruption. For a crime committed against the very core of American democracy, the press gave him a pass and the president gave him a promotion.
Maybe he blackmailed everyone using NSA data...
Re: Judge Deals a Blow to N.S.A. Data Collection Program
#6> A federal judge on Monday partly blocked the National Security Agency’s program that systematically collects Americans’ domestic phone records in bulk just weeks before the agency was scheduled to shut it down and replace it.
Re: Judge Deals a Blow to N.S.A. Data Collection Program
#7Due to the nature of such surveillance - there is little oversight over what is actually being done. Which means there is no promise anything is being done. As a citizen, is there any way for me to know for certain or must I have faith my government is working how it claims to work? I'll explain... [Begin conspiracy theory]If a judge marks it unconstitutional or not or forbids them from doing it doesn't necessarily m…
The fact that to date nobody has been held responsible lends a great deal of credibility to your conspiracy theory. I'd be highly surprised if they were upset at what they did, I think they're mostly upset at being caught.
>The fact that to date nobody has been held responsible lends a great deal of credibility to your conspiracy theory.
Do you mind explaining why you think that? I do not think it makes my theory any more credible.
My concern is that checks and balances rely on oversight. Oversight relies on motivation. There doesn't seem to be any motivation to provide oversight of the NSA.
Anyone in a position to provide oversight can easily be bribed. Want to snoop on your SO or a love interest? Bam. They now have a reason to "glance over" the surveillance and use it for their own personal gain. There is zero motivation other than "integrity" for ratting on the NSA while the individual stands to benefit by keeping their trap shut.
Also because there are always the apologetic pro-authoritarian government shills out there: Yes. I firmly believe that all levels and positions of government can be corrupted or bribed. That doesn't necessarily mean that they are all corrupt. But it cannot be discounted as a possibility.
Re: Judge Deals a Blow to N.S.A. Data Collection Program
#8Due to the nature of such surveillance - there is little oversight over what is actually being done. Which means there is no promise anything is being done. As a citizen, is there any way for me to know for certain or must I have faith my government is working how it claims to work? I'll explain... [Begin conspiracy theory]If a judge marks it unconstitutional or not or forbids them from doing it doesn't necessarily m…
James Clapper's congressional perjury will probably make the history books as an example of modern corruption. For a crime committed against the very core of American democracy, the press gave him a pass and the president gave him a promotion. Maybe he blackmailed everyone using NSA data... http://www.hasjamesclapperbeenindictedyet.com/
Clapper didn't get punished because he did his job. Lying and spying is what he's been paid and ordered to do. If he didn't commit perjury my guess is that he would have been disappeared. I'm not arguing for him or the system but I'm not at all shocked that it was swept under the rug.
Re: Judge Deals a Blow to N.S.A. Data Collection Program
#9Due to the nature of such surveillance - there is little oversight over what is actually being done. Which means there is no promise anything is being done. As a citizen, is there any way for me to know for certain or must I have faith my government is working how it claims to work? I'll explain... [Begin conspiracy theory]If a judge marks it unconstitutional or not or forbids them from doing it doesn't necessarily m…
The fact that to date nobody has been held responsible lends a great deal of credibility to your conspiracy theory. I'd be highly surprised if they were upset at what they did, I think they're mostly upset at being caught.
I think that's pretty much correct.
A lot of the problems here are simply about the inherent tensions with intelligence gathering. The default statements from such agencies pretty much has to be, "if you knew what I new, you'd be very afraid". And the default reply, now that "we" know they are not trustworthy, has to be, "bullshit".
Short of the NSA actually behaving as if civilian control over their operations was a thing, and doing so for a generation, I don't see how they regain the trust of folks they are ostensibly there to protect.
Which is a bit of a problem, assuming they care about such things.
Re: Judge Deals a Blow to N.S.A. Data Collection Program
#10Earlier quoted context omitted.
The fact that to date nobody has been held responsible lends a great deal of credibility to your conspiracy theory. I'd be highly surprised if they were upset at what they did, I think they're mostly upset at being caught.
>The fact that to date nobody has been held responsible lends a great deal of credibility to your conspiracy theory. Do you mind explaining why you think that? I do not think it makes my theory any more credible. My concern is that checks and balances rely on oversight. Oversight relies on motivation. There doesn't seem to be any motivation to provide oversight of the NSA. Anyone in a position to provide oversight ca…
It lends credibility because if the culprits are known (and they are) and what they did was found to be illegal (and it seems we crossed that particular line long ago) then they should be in court as defendants rather than be promoted.
It's not that there isn't any motivation to provide oversight, it's the exact opposite, there is a strong motivation to look the other way. If it weren't then there surely should have been a lot more fall-out from the Snowden leaks but in fact it is mostly a re-arranging and re-naming of some programs and making sure the next Snowden has a much harder time of doing it (and probably an even harder time of getting out of the US before tshtf).
This has nothing to do with corruption per-se, it has simply got to do with that plenty of what goes on without our knowledge can not stand the light of day and the amount of complicity is such that no government official will want to look too hard at what other departments are up to because they're up to their necks in it themselves.
And that's not just limited to the USA either, I fully expect every western democracy to be doing roughly the same thing only limited by capability to execute and budget.