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Show HN: HTML for People

htmlforpeople.com

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Re: Show HN: HTML for People

#91

Post by mch82 »

MathMonkeyMan wrote: post #16
_lvbh wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's crazy how bad the mobile epidemic has gotten. There are kids coming into a Computer Science degree that can't figure out how to unzip a zip or even finding out where files get downloaded to. (Fwiw, those I know dropped out before 2nd year)

My dad was asking me a question about backing something up onto Google Drive, or saving space on some cloud storage account, or something. He was using the mental model of files and folders -- that files exist and refer to stored bytes, and that there can be one or several copies of a file. There can be links to a file that take very little space relative to the file. I had to tell him that I have no idea what sort o…

It’s ridiculous how complicated it’s gotten to answer my parents’ questions about stuff like this. The old desktop metaphors are gone. Screens are difficult for older eyes to read. Every app has a cloud service. Really seems like huge step back in usability.

Re: Show HN: HTML for People

#92

Post by emseetech »

dartharva wrote: post #72
forbiddenvoid wrote: post #13

I love the idea and I'm thrilled to see more sites like this out there. But I do think this assumes a level of computer literacy that isn't consistent with typical, non-technical users. Step 1 starts with: > Pick a location on your computer and create a folder. Call it my-site or something similar. You've already lost the vast majority of people right here. There are a shockingly large number of people out there that…

It's weird seeing this getting emphasized over and again in this thread. > There are a shockingly large number of people out there that use computers EVERY day that won't know how to do this. That's very hard to believe. Even my mom, who doesn't use computers at all, would know what folders and files mean. The people who don't know what files and folders are - can't immediately be beneficiaries of this guide, right?…

As far as I've noticed, it's not older people who have the issue but younger. The average 22 year old today has been using mobile devices as their primary device for 10+ years. This is especially noticeable amongst poorer families, where a $20 a month low end financed android phone is much more of an option than a $300 computer.

Re: Show HN: HTML for People

#93

Post by JodieBenitez »

bartvk wrote: post #27
_lvbh wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's crazy how bad the mobile epidemic has gotten. There are kids coming into a Computer Science degree that can't figure out how to unzip a zip or even finding out where files get downloaded to. (Fwiw, those I know dropped out before 2nd year)

I'd say half of my first-year CS students don't know how to create a folder with files, at the start of the school year. To me, it's nuts. But on the other hand, lots of students are very curious and come to learn. You can't blame them for not knowing something.

I'm probably old, but we used to learn DOS prompt basics (and folders and files and stuff) in what would be the equivalent of junior high school in the US. And not in special courses, it was "normal". Heck, I was even introduced to Microsoft Basic at school while in the equivalent of 4th grade on these funny Thomson MO5 computers.

But that's not what they are taught now. They are taught to use social media and cloud services, which is completely useless since they figured this out themselves already.

The education system here just keeps them early in a consumer mind state. It has absolutely no ambition and is just a race to the bottom.

Re: Show HN: HTML for People

#94

Post by lmm »

dockd wrote: post #52
giobox wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I try not to get overly-annoyed at this kind of thing too, but to me it just demonstrates an incredible lack of self-drive, or curiosity, especially in the CS domain. If the students are genuinely curious, there is nothing to stop them learning about pretty much any topic in CS - really. There are few university subjects where the entire syllabus is freely available online in almost every format imaginable the way CS…

To keep that line of reasoning going, what is the purpose of the university, if you're supposed to learn everything on your own?

That's exactly why I switched out of CS and did a degree in something that was harder to teach myself (mathematics).

I'm a programmer now, but I don't think finishing the CS course would've helped much with that.

Re: Show HN: HTML for People

#95

Post by vivzkestrel »

blakewatson wrote: post #39
aardvark179 wrote: post #5

Why, “Start coding already!” rather than something like, “Start writing already?” I think half the barrier to people building sites is that they think they need to know how to code, and that seems scary, but they do know what they want to write, and that seems more approachable.

OP here. Oooh that’s a good suggestion. Yeah it’s hard to shed the webdev persona and see it through fresh eyes—even though I specifically tried to do just that!

"Start typing already"

Re: Show HN: HTML for People

#96

Post by forbiddenvoid »

emseetech wrote: post #92
dartharva wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's weird seeing this getting emphasized over and again in this thread. > There are a shockingly large number of people out there that use computers EVERY day that won't know how to do this. That's very hard to believe. Even my mom, who doesn't use computers at all, would know what folders and files mean. The people who don't know what files and folders are - can't immediately be beneficiaries of this guide, right?…

As far as I've noticed, it's not older people who have the issue but younger. The average 22 year old today has been using mobile devices as their primary device for 10+ years. This is especially noticeable amongst poorer families, where a $20 a month low end financed android phone is much more of an option than a $300 computer.

It's a bit of both, really. The typical computer or mobile user doesn't have general purpose computing knowledge or expertise. They don't know how their computer works or what any of the things in it ARE. They know how to follow a particular defined sequence of steps to get an outcome.

I worked over the phone tech support for a few years about 20 years ago, and it really opened my eyes to how far the gap is between the tech literate and everyday computer users.

I think this guide is terrific, for what it's worth. I just also think there's a lot more people out there that this guide SHOULD help, that it won't, because of that fundamental gap.

Re: Show HN: HTML for People

#97

Post by necovek »

_lvbh wrote: post #12
simonw wrote: post #8

This is great. The decision to skip CSS by depending on https://simplecss.org/ is smart - CSS is a whole other thing, and having that on top of basic HTML would be pretty intimidating. I did worry a bit about https://htmlforpeople.com/zero-to-internet-your-first-websit... - "Step 1. Create a folder on your computer" - because apparently a large number of people these days don't understand files and folders at all! ht…

It's crazy how bad the mobile epidemic has gotten. There are kids coming into a Computer Science degree that can't figure out how to unzip a zip or even finding out where files get downloaded to. (Fwiw, those I know dropped out before 2nd year)

I've been hacking at computers for almost 30 years, and I cannot figure out where a file gets downloaded to on a mobile (Android) phone.

Re: Show HN: HTML for People

#98

Post by chronogram »

necovek wrote: post #97
_lvbh wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's crazy how bad the mobile epidemic has gotten. There are kids coming into a Computer Science degree that can't figure out how to unzip a zip or even finding out where files get downloaded to. (Fwiw, those I know dropped out before 2nd year)

I've been hacking at computers for almost 30 years, and I cannot figure out where a file gets downloaded to on a mobile (Android) phone.

That sounds really difficult for you. It's just a "Download" folder on my device, just like in most operating systems since the '00s.

Re: Show HN: HTML for People

#99

Post by treflop »

_lvbh wrote: post #12
simonw wrote: post #8

This is great. The decision to skip CSS by depending on https://simplecss.org/ is smart - CSS is a whole other thing, and having that on top of basic HTML would be pretty intimidating. I did worry a bit about https://htmlforpeople.com/zero-to-internet-your-first-websit... - "Step 1. Create a folder on your computer" - because apparently a large number of people these days don't understand files and folders at all! ht…

It's crazy how bad the mobile epidemic has gotten. There are kids coming into a Computer Science degree that can't figure out how to unzip a zip or even finding out where files get downloaded to. (Fwiw, those I know dropped out before 2nd year)

With all due respect, it's not like your average person who drives all the time knows how their car works at all either.

Re: Show HN: HTML for People

#100

Post by citizenpaul »

simonw wrote: post #8

This is great. The decision to skip CSS by depending on https://simplecss.org/ is smart - CSS is a whole other thing, and having that on top of basic HTML would be pretty intimidating. I did worry a bit about https://htmlforpeople.com/zero-to-internet-your-first-websit... - "Step 1. Create a folder on your computer" - because apparently a large number of people these days don't understand files and folders at all! ht…

>don't understand files and folder

It may not go over well but I don't think this is some generational thing. Its just plain pure laziness that has become epidemic.

>Joshua Drossman, ..the laundry basket where you have everything kind of together, and you’re just kind of pulling out what you need at any given time,” he says, attempting to describe his mental model.

>I try to be organized, but there’s a certain point where there are so many files that it kind of just became a hot mess

Yeah.....need I say more? Other than gross. I think those statements prove my point better than I can.

Like most on HN I'm extremely computer savvy and I've yet to find a way to avoid dealing with file/folder models and I've tried. All other ways fall apart no matter how "advanced" they are. Maybe it will change with LLMs but so far there is no way for the computer to anticipate what you do/don't want and organize for you.

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