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Show HN: Boardzilla, a framework for making web-based board games

boardzilla.io

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Re: Show HN: Boardzilla, a framework for making web-based board games

#91
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty clear that "zilla" is a genericised word suffix, cf "bridezilla", in English. Whilst it seems to originate with Godzilla -- which honestly also doesn't seem to associate with a particular company but instead I would say it's a now traditional monster name in stories, like Dracula -- noone is confusing this with any Godzilla franchise. These sort of attempts to own a word sten, across trademark categories,…

> Whilst it seems to originate with Godzilla -- which honestly also doesn't seem to associate with a particular company but instead I would say it's a now traditional monster name in stories, like Dracula This is a really weird take. Dracula is in the public domain, while every piece of Godzilla media is still copyrighted and trademarked to Toho, one of the big four movie studios of Japan.

What do you find “really weird”?

Dracula debuted in 1897 while Godzilla debuted in 1954.

Isn’t this the main reason one is public domain already and the other is not?

Re: Show HN: Boardzilla, a framework for making web-based board games

#92
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why on earth choose a non-OO language for a boardgame Lua has usually been a very popular choice for game developers. One reason is that it gives you an easy way to embed a scripting language in your game. You can do OOP without classes [0]. > Can you please please please integrate with Python on the server? You expect the developer to port and maintain their entire project to Python because you can't be bothered t…

Seems pretty trivial to support Python serverside. Python is very easy to run in a lightweight isolated container (and you can compile it to static executable). The game data that the engine makes available to the server side code looks pretty standard and doesn't look like a huge shim to maintain. You could even cross compile the Python to typescript for a simplified server side environment (typy for example).

Anything is trivially easy when you aren't the person that has to do it.

Re: Show HN: Boardzilla, a framework for making web-based board games

#93
Been enjoying playing a couple games of Seven Wonders Duel so far, but one immediate issue is that there is no way to unsubscribe from the emails telling me it's my turn. I've already got browser notifications turned on, so these emails are filling up my inbox fast.

I've also reported a couple bugs so far, the main one being not being able to build Wonders even though I have adequate resources, but other than that, amazing work! I'm keen to implement a game myself sometime soon.

Re: Show HN: Boardzilla, a framework for making web-based board games

#94

Been enjoying playing a couple games of Seven Wonders Duel so far, but one immediate issue is that there is no way to unsubscribe from the emails telling me it's my turn. I've already got browser notifications turned on, so these emails are filling up my inbox fast. I've also reported a couple bugs so far, the main one being not being able to build Wonders even though I have adequate resources, but other than that, a…

Oh darn, sorry about the email notifications. I'm going to disable them and give them a little extra polish later. Thanks for letting me know

Re: Show HN: Boardzilla, a framework for making web-based board games

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not. I really dislike discord as anything else than a platform for disposable communication, e.g. between friends and stuff, but people have this tendency of using it as the prominent platform for support questions and even as documentation. And together with terrible search, and no search indexing, it's just terrible when you need to search for a solution.

Fwiw, we're only using Discord for disposable communication. We have a docusaurus site up for the docs, and otherwise all the development is taking place on Github. Discord seems very popular with the board game crowd, so it was kind of the first place we went to try to reach gamers before we started reaching out to developers. What do you prefer to discord for disposable communication? Certainly open to suggestions.

I don't think anyone's criticizing or advising against the use of Discord for the things it's adequate for, but rather its proeminence in the webpage, which communicates that you'll have to go to Discord to get more substantial information on the project. Having to talk to people is a source of stress and attrition for introverts. Not everyone needs or wants to have to modulate their language to a different social environment every time they need clarification.

Re: Show HN: Boardzilla, a framework for making web-based board games

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fwiw, we're only using Discord for disposable communication. We have a docusaurus site up for the docs, and otherwise all the development is taking place on Github. Discord seems very popular with the board game crowd, so it was kind of the first place we went to try to reach gamers before we started reaching out to developers. What do you prefer to discord for disposable communication? Certainly open to suggestions.

I don't think anyone's criticizing or advising against the use of Discord for the things it's adequate for, but rather its proeminence in the webpage, which communicates that you'll have to go to Discord to get more substantial information on the project. Having to talk to people is a source of stress and attrition for introverts. Not everyone needs or wants to have to modulate their language to a different social en…

Good feedback, let me see what I can do about this and thanks

Re: Show HN: Boardzilla, a framework for making web-based board games

#97

I don't think the foremost message on the landing page should be a "join our discord" call. It should feature examples and links to the source/docs. In fact, the prominence of "join our discord" on projects like this is off-putting for me personally. I don't doubt I am alone in this regard.

You are not. I really dislike discord as anything else than a platform for disposable communication, e.g. between friends and stuff, but people have this tendency of using it as the prominent platform for support questions and even as documentation. And together with terrible search, and no search indexing, it's just terrible when you need to search for a solution.

I have the same issues with Discord - but surely there must be bots that publish Discord support channels as indexable websites?

Re: Show HN: Boardzilla, a framework for making web-based board games

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh wow, thanks, I'll check this out. We were doing something more like merely recording the game moves and applying them to arrive at the game state (having deterministic per-session rng). It's a good way to do it, but for the same of simplicity, this time around we just record the whole json blob per move. It simplifies undos and it also lets us easily move through history if you want to view a previous state. But I…

You might be interested in the Phase abstraction of my engine. Basically you represent your board game as a tree of phases through which your game progresses in. Each node of your phase tree can contain state. At any point, your game is at leaf of your tree, and the state of the game is composed of all the states of all the nodes from the current leaf-phase to the root of the tree. Each leaf node also have a set of p…

That's almost exactly what I've done here, and then defined various nodes with different behaviour like for-loops, while-loops, etc.

Take a look at https://docs.boardzilla.io/game/flow to see how it looks.

Re: Show HN: Boardzilla, a framework for making web-based board games

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone's criticizing or advising against the use of Discord for the things it's adequate for, but rather its proeminence in the webpage, which communicates that you'll have to go to Discord to get more substantial information on the project. Having to talk to people is a source of stress and attrition for introverts. Not everyone needs or wants to have to modulate their language to a different social en…

Good feedback, let me see what I can do about this and thanks

I've spent over a minute after finding on HN there's something more than just discord invitation trying to find where any clue is. Like, you know, playing notpron. Tried clicking on different icons, then the footer, literally nothing. Finally, I scrolled. Not sure if it's my resolution+scaling or what, but with nowadays' bare visible scrollbars, there was a map with some tiles and coins on the right, and just some gray empty space after. As I believe 4k 150% is quite standard, there's no surprise some people may get confused.

Re: Show HN: Boardzilla, a framework for making web-based board games

#100
post #45

You're using Typescript+CSS. Was hoping you'd support Python on the server, for game logic. Your timing is good because developers and publishers currently using BGA are unsettled and spooked by Asmodee's business model. BGA Studio's stack is JS/CSS + PHP (client and server) + MySQL [0] Yucata.de is JS + HTML + .NET 4.5 on the server [1] (TTS was using Lua, which I looked into but seemed eccentric and limited, it's n…

> why on earth choose a non-OO language for a boardgame Lua has usually been a very popular choice for game developers. One reason is that it gives you an easy way to embed a scripting language in your game. You can do OOP without classes [0]. > Can you please please please integrate with Python on the server? You expect the developer to port and maintain their entire project to Python because you can't be bothered t…

I clearly didn't "expect" the developer to port or do anything, I requested they consider also integrating with a (server-side) language that's in general more widespread, more expressive, more userbase, more libraries, more powerful developer tools. Per the examples I cited, boardgame platforms put most of the game logic on server-side, for complex games. The client-side checks that moves are not illegal, cheating or nonsensical.

I wasn't aware Lua had become widespread in game programming [0] (or more specifically, scripting on top of a game engine written in some other language); but supposedly not mainly due to whether Lua language has adequate features, but in part as a reaction to (client) performance of the Lua VM vs Python (VM maps to register set rather than stack-based; lower memory usage; coroutines); on client rather than on server. Some discussion in [0].

I did in fact in 2020 look into implementing a friend's boardgame in Lua on TTS vs in Python. That programming only confirmed my experience that line-for-line, Python is more expressive, IME more productive to develop in, also has much stronger library support.

Why is the basic documentation [1] on whether/how to implement OO Lua so contradictory and all over the place? When I look for a how-to document, I want a clear how-to, I don't want to see Lua's own users in a decades-long debate [2][3][4][5][6]. Or [7]. Or a lua-users.org/wiki that isn't even accessible via https [8]. (If I should be using a more accurate term than "OO", then just tell me what that is, instead of ad-hominems.) So for example, do we need polymorphism, mixins, the ability to call super, serialization (probably can do without that), etc. Should we sacrifice other features for more deterministic GC and performance? What are the compelling reasons for server-side Lua? on a feature-by-feature basis vs say Python?

(There's also a constituency who insist that Tcl is object-oriented, FWIW.)

Probably the best way to keep this discussion on-focus is to define "What is the consensus on an adequate set of OO features that's considered necessary for server-side game logic programming?" (that's a rational discussion, not "can't be bothered to", which is just ad-hominem).

As to TS, in my experience I don't find strong type-checking to prevent that many bugs, in codebases written by a small number of developers. I can program JS, so again if I saw a compelling reason to start using TS I would. (Sure, you could also crosscompile Python.) Again, that's not the primary issue, the primary issue is what server-side language once the game becomes complex and outgrows a pure TS implementation.

[0]: "Civilization V ditching Python for Lua" https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/bp5m8/civiliza...

[1]: https://www.lua.org/pil/16.html

[2]: How can one implement OO in Lua? https://stackoverflow.com/questions/4799078/how-can-one-impl...

[3]: Is doing OOP in Lua considered bad practice? https://www.reddit.com/r/lua/comments/tbaxlo/is_doing_oop_in...

[4]: Really, how best to give Lua an object/class structure? https://www.reddit.com/r/lua/comments/tia21g/really_how_best...

[5]: Is Lua an object-oriented language? (SO, 2011) https://stackoverflow.com/questions/3477676/is-lua-an-object...

[6]: Why inheritance isn't as useful in dynamic languages, and other notes on OO in Lua (marc.info) "In short: inheritance is in most cases not a feature, just a simplistic method for expressing similarity." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=98529

[7]: r/ProgrammingLanguages, 2022: "If Lua is faster and smaller than Python, while being just as powerful and capable, then why is Python so much more popular?" https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammingLanguages/comments/tfurk...

[8]: https://wiki.c2.com/?LuaUsersWiki

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