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Show HN: Density – Anonymous People Counter and API

density.io

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Re: Show HN: Density – Anonymous People Counter and API

#81

Post by noxryan »

Animats wrote: post #76

The site is rather vague. They provide the hardware and install it for free, which implies they're selling data to someone else. Who? There's no privacy policy. No terms of service. The "order" button just brings up a blank email. How does the device tell how many people are present based on counting at a doorframe? Is it counting people passing through the door? Does it detect direction? Is it good enough to estimat…

I was also wondering about its ability to determine the direction of traffic. If it relies on a location having a separate entrance and exit, that's a pretty big negative. I'm also wondering how it handles large groups. Does anyone have any idea how the hardware works?

Re: Show HN: Density – Anonymous People Counter and API

#82

Post by dfine »

afar wrote: post #72
Rapidwire wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a camera films you while you are on someone else's property, then I'd argue it isn't an invasion of privacy since there was no expectation of privacy to begin with. Also, it would be nice if you would identify yourself as an employee of Density when you post comments.

I agree. But I think there should be a distinction between being on someone's property and being recorded for security and being in a cafe, having your face recognized as someone that frequented a sex shop last week, pairing that with an online profile, and then being pushed a retargeted ad campaign about your fetish.

For the record, that's not what Placemeter does. We don't individually identify people with our algorithms. (I am a PM at Placemeter.)

Re: Show HN: Density – Anonymous People Counter and API

#85

Post by kefka »

eevilspock wrote: post #74
kefka wrote: post #71

Ok. So businesses already have cameras. Yeah, privacy, schmiravacy. That horse has done gone left the barn. So, the second problem with cameras/face tracking is cost? I wrote this: https://github.com/jwcrawley/uWho It does what your hardware does, but also does facial recognition. It's still early in the build process, but I'm working on a commercial (non-QT) version of this. But right now, it can accurately count un…

> Yeah, privacy, schmiravacy. That horse has done gone left the barn. So you're using the slippery slope as justification and welcome sign instead of warning. The world is all downhill from here exactly because people don't have the integrity and courage to resist. Also

Slippery slope? Humans already can do classification. Should we ban humans from identifying and counting other humans?

I can hire 2 guards who can remember people by taking a photo. And then I can have them recall who shows up. With people.

All my project does is substitute a computer for human. The only reason why we don't do the above is because people cost a lot more. Computer software and cycles are cheap.

And the procedure I used with my code saves a hash of the face. I cannot generate faces from the hash, although it would be a one liner to spool a face to the hard drive when a pic is captured. My software doesn't do that.

Re: Show HN: Density – Anonymous People Counter and API

#86

Post by afar »

dfine wrote: post #73
afar wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah... I mean I appreciate that people pay lip-service to privacy but a surveillance camera that counts you as a distinct individual without your consent is an invasion of privacy. The cost is higher than the price tag, homie. Edit I am an employee of Density and definitely biased.

I am a PM at Placemeter. We do not "use facial recognition software" in our algorithms, as Density's website claims of video-based systems. None of our algorithms use biometric markers for our counting—we're essentially the same "dumb" counters as Density's IR with the added advantage of accuracy and area of coverage. Placemeter does much more than pay lip service to privacy. We pride ourself on our privacy efforts.…

I am curious. Particularly with your new sensor. It sounded like much of the video processing happens on the unit itself, meaning faces never reach Placemeter servers. Is it accurate to say that you're only getting counts and movement data?

My other question is how you derive count without uniquely identifying someone. If I'm entering a shop and a PM sensor sees me, will it know when I leave?

Re: Show HN: Density – Anonymous People Counter and API

#87

Post by dfine »

afar wrote: post #86
dfine wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a PM at Placemeter. We do not "use facial recognition software" in our algorithms, as Density's website claims of video-based systems. None of our algorithms use biometric markers for our counting—we're essentially the same "dumb" counters as Density's IR with the added advantage of accuracy and area of coverage. Placemeter does much more than pay lip service to privacy. We pride ourself on our privacy efforts.…

I am curious. Particularly with your new sensor. It sounded like much of the video processing happens on the unit itself, meaning faces never reach Placemeter servers. Is it accurate to say that you're only getting counts and movement data? My other question is how you derive count without uniquely identifying someone. If I'm entering a shop and a PM sensor sees me, will it know when I leave?

Great questions.

1) the processing is happening aboard the sensor, counts are what are sent back to the servers

2) we don't do unique identification like that. We use object detection, which is different than using unique biometric markers like face detection. That means that we can track a person or a car within a frame of view, but not if they exit and re-enter the frame like in the case you described.

Does Density still use wifi pinging for part of its counts?

Re: Show HN: Density – Anonymous People Counter and API

#88

Post by escobar »

noxryan wrote: post #81
Animats wrote: post #76

The site is rather vague. They provide the hardware and install it for free, which implies they're selling data to someone else. Who? There's no privacy policy. No terms of service. The "order" button just brings up a blank email. How does the device tell how many people are present based on counting at a doorframe? Is it counting people passing through the door? Does it detect direction? Is it good enough to estimat…

I was also wondering about its ability to determine the direction of traffic. If it relies on a location having a separate entrance and exit, that's a pretty big negative. I'm also wondering how it handles large groups. Does anyone have any idea how the hardware works?

There's not much actual information available (this should be concerning), but there have been some clues dropped into past HN threads. This is a picture posted in another HN thread of their "original sensor" which is just 2 basic IR sensors: https://s3.amazonaws.com/screenshots.angel.co/73/340163/7982...

As far as I can tell from the updated website, the new sensor is the same thing, just dressed up nicer. Each sensor is only counting one metric, i.e. ingress. Beyond that, the base hardware (not the sensor) is a Raspberry Pi that connects to both the sensor(s) and WiFi. I'd imagine it would make sense to have many sensors for each box, but maybe not.

Re: Show HN: Density – Anonymous People Counter and API

#89

Post by patcheudor »

Animats wrote: post #76

The site is rather vague. They provide the hardware and install it for free, which implies they're selling data to someone else. Who? There's no privacy policy. No terms of service. The "order" button just brings up a blank email. How does the device tell how many people are present based on counting at a doorframe? Is it counting people passing through the door? Does it detect direction? Is it good enough to estimat…

Also, what kind of battery does it take and how often am I going to need to change it? Honestly, maybe it's because I have too many devices but I'm done with anything which requires a battery swap more than a once every couple years.

Re: Show HN: Density – Anonymous People Counter and API

#90

Post by berberous »

Animats wrote: post #76

The site is rather vague. They provide the hardware and install it for free, which implies they're selling data to someone else. Who? There's no privacy policy. No terms of service. The "order" button just brings up a blank email. How does the device tell how many people are present based on counting at a doorframe? Is it counting people passing through the door? Does it detect direction? Is it good enough to estimat…

Hardware/install is free, but costs you $25/month/location to receive your data. (Not that this means they are not also selling data elsewhere).
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