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Show HN: Offset – Credit card powered by trust between people

offsetcredit.org

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Re: Show HN: Offset – Credit card powered by trust between people

#81

Post by matheusd »

throwaway0x00ff wrote: post #74

It's interesting to compare this model to the Lightning Network on top of Bitcoin. Essentially, the Lightning Network uses this kind of "friendships" (payments channels) with the exception that parties do not need to trust each other in order to transact. It would be interesting to add LN to this page: https://docs.offsetcredit.org/en/latest/intro/blockchain_com... Basically, the differences between LN and Offset wou…

Spitballing here but it seems you could even (re-)implement an Offset-based LN by using an alternative (non-PoW) blockchain underlying the channels.

This alternative blockchain would work for accounting purposes so it can be entirely local (i.e. each node has its own local blockchain).

Re: Show HN: Offset – Credit card powered by trust between people

#82

Post by Nursie »

fiatjaf wrote: post #3
stagas wrote: post #2

This looked initially like a cool idea, then I realized that to trade with someone you have to have a mutual credit line with them, or through someone who already has a credit line. How is this any different than the current model, where the bank/government/central money issuer is our mutual credit line and why wouldn't this model eventually end up with banker-type people managing the credit for everyone? You could g…

If one, this would be open. The current banking system doesn't suck because people are greedy or bankers are bad people. It sucks because it is closed and no one can join. (If you're tempted to say: "no, anyone can join, they just have to fulfill the regulations blablabla", then this is your answer.)

> "no, anyone can join, they just have to fulfill the regulations blablabla", then this is your answer.

Banking regulations are hard won protections for the consumer or investor applied after years of misadventure and (usually) large-scale fraud. They aren't perfect but the idea that it would be great to just throw those out so anyone can start being a bank is one of the crazier things I've heard recently.

Re: Show HN: Offset – Credit card powered by trust between people

#83

Post by jonahbenton »

pjc50 wrote: post #68
jonahbenton wrote: post #10

Congratulations. You have reinvented tally sticks. Snark aside, I wish you lots of luck, have thought about this model a lot, think there is probably a small place for it in the world. Two suggestions from random stranger on the internet, take them for what they're worth: * don't use the word "money." This is a private credit network, not money. Private credit networks sometimes become money, but they don't start out…

I'm not really clear on how this is supposed to interact with the real payment system: is it a credit card, with a normal acquiring bank? Is there an extension of credit? Because all credit is also money creation! (Broad money). Anyone with a pen can create money by writing an IOU. This is one of the things the goldbugs don't seem to understand properly. Also, if this is some form of geek "hawala banking", how does i…

Yeah...my limited read of it is, first off- from a biz perspective, it's a toy. It has a toy understanding of money, a toy understanding of inflation, a toy understanding of payment...but the mechanism they have stumbled upon has underlain real-life credit systems for thousands of years. Lots of successful things have started out as toy implementations from toy understandings that get usage and users and become real. The Pinocchio story, rather than the Cinderella story.

My understanding is it would have the trust aspects of Hawala banking, but for goods transmission, not actual money as occurs in Hawala. I don't think there is a money transmission problem.

I am sure were this to be real that there would be a tax problem. There would need to be reporting of sales and so forth, in fiat equivalent.

I don't know that there needs per se to be connectivity to real payment systems, though there do need to be real identities.

Anyway, just guesses. Glad to see it.

Re: Show HN: Offset – Credit card powered by trust between people

#84

Post by jonahbenton »

sunshinerag wrote: post #73
jonahbenton wrote: post #10

Congratulations. You have reinvented tally sticks. Snark aside, I wish you lots of luck, have thought about this model a lot, think there is probably a small place for it in the world. Two suggestions from random stranger on the internet, take them for what they're worth: * don't use the word "money." This is a private credit network, not money. Private credit networks sometimes become money, but they don't start out…

Could you care to explain what you mean by "... but fundamentally there is a tension between store of value and medium of exchange" What is the tension?

Broadly speaking there is a tension between those two aspects of money that shows up in economic context: store of value optimizes for asset qualities, preservation of value in the face of inflation, risk, etc; medium of exchange optimizes for liquidity, fungibility, etc.

There is also a tension between those two aspects from a product perspective. The various aspects of money are slowly getting decomplected and decoupled. BTC does a perfectly fine job in the market solving for the store of value feature, and in particular for the inflation-hedge subfeature. It is a terrible medium of exchange.

As a product, Offset should leave store of value be and just solve for medium of exchange. From store of value perspective, touting Offset as an inflation hedge is going to turn out to be wrong, because their toy world understanding of inflation is wrong. But there is opportunity in medium of exchange, and plenty to do there. Focus on getting users, transactions, dealing with fraud, liquidity issues. Get trains running on those payment rails.

This kind of private credit network has existed for thousands of years. Find the specific ecosystems today in which this sort of private trust/credit machinery is compatible, ergonomic, and automating it meets a need. There are potentially lots of them!

Re: Show HN: Offset – Credit card powered by trust between people

#85

Post by rjmunro »

I would market this as an app for a few friends to install and keep track of what they owe each other when one of them settles the bill at a restaurant. Whoever owed the most could settle that day, and everyone else's bill would be deducted. A network of friends could expand from there.

A "credit card" has negative connotations for many people.

Watching the "setting up" video here: https://docs.offsetcredit.org/en/latest/intro/app_manual.htm... it's too convoluted. Everything that needs turning on should be turned on by default. The default servers should be used unless you go into settings before you start and turn them off. When you add a friend, the default currency should be selected, and a default amount put in ($50 seems a reasonable starting amount that I'd be prepared for a friend to owe me, but the default should go in settings).

It would be good if the names of your friends copied over automatically.

Re: Show HN: Offset – Credit card powered by trust between people

#86

Post by rjmunro »

jiofih wrote: post #77

Eh. This is how the banking system works. Once some entities in the network become big enough, and transactions large enough to warrant credit checks and so on, what do you have? A bank. This is nothing more than an unregulated settlement system.

Yes, but that's a good thing. It handle's the microtransaction case in a small community cheaply (I paid the bill today, you can pay next week) but scales to being a service banks could join and offer.

Re: Show HN: Offset – Credit card powered by trust between people

#87

Post by rjmunro »

stagas wrote: post #5
fiatjaf wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If one, this would be open. The current banking system doesn't suck because people are greedy or bankers are bad people. It sucks because it is closed and no one can join. (If you're tempted to say: "no, anyone can join, they just have to fulfill the regulations blablabla", then this is your answer.)

There are local communities around the world that run their own credit lines for exchange of goods outside of the banking system, so it's not that Offset is enabling something that isn't happening already. Maybe the software is more convenient but is it any more different? I'm trying to understand. My question is what's preventing few people accumulating trust and credit lines and eventually becoming bankers for this…

> My question is what's preventing few people accumulating trust and credit lines and eventually becoming bankers for this system?

The way I understood it nothing is preventing people doing that. Quite the opposite, in fact. That's the whole idea. That's what is supposed to happen. The difference is that the barrier to entry for those people is essentially nothing, rather than having to start an actual bank, which will encourage local competition, keeping fees low.

Re: Show HN: Offset – Credit card powered by trust between people

#88

Post by rjmunro »

redis_mlc wrote: post #42

> [banker refused to cancel a personal credit card because it was the bank's] The comment disappeared, but I wanted to illuminate ... Banks do have reasons for delaying account closures: - good reason - delay closing until statements arrive and are paid. This is also commonly done with checking accounts in the US, which has delayed final settlement for inter-bank transactions. - bad reason - employees get rewards for…

> delay closing until statements arrive and are paid

They should cancel the card being able to make further payments, but keep the account open for repayments until it is settled.

Re: Show HN: Offset – Credit card powered by trust between people

#89

Post by rjmunro »

realcr wrote: post #59
jbb67 wrote: post #50

Is there any way to do anything with this right now? Is there anything you can buy or sell with it? Do I need real life friends to use this so I can set up "trust" as this will be a problem preventing me from even trying it out? (I have friends, just not ones that will try this)

Sorry, there is nothing you can buy with Offset right now! Maybe I should set up some kind of a demo website so that people can try it out. One thing you can do is open two Offset cards on your own mobile phone, and try to pay with one card to the other (:

Surely if I install it and my friend installs it we can already use it to keep track of how much we owe each other.

Re: Show HN: Offset – Credit card powered by trust between people

#90

Post by rjmunro »

jbb67 wrote: post #47

this looks really interesting and an awesome idea. I downloaded the app but then realized that with nobody I know using it, and nobody I can buy things from using it, I literally can't do anything with it. any ideas how to use it for ...anything..?

Persuade a friend who owes you some money to install it. Keep track of how much you owe each other.
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