Show HN: Density – Anonymous People Counter and API • Hacker News Board

Re: Show HN: Density – Anonymous People Counter and API

#71

Post by kefka » Mon, Jul 13, 2015, 6:22 PM UTC

Ok. So businesses already have cameras. Yeah, privacy, schmiravacy. That horse has done gone left the barn.

So, the second problem with cameras/face tracking is cost?

I wrote this: https://github.com/jwcrawley/uWho

It does what your hardware does, but also does facial recognition. It's still early in the build process, but I'm working on a commercial (non-QT) version of this.

But right now, it can accurately count unique people, as well as remember people. So when Jane walks in front of the camera, it remembers that her database number is 1234. Tomorrow, it will also remember that she's 1234. And tracking is all stored in few XML config files for easy calculation.

Re: Show HN: Density – Anonymous People Counter and API

#72

Post by afar » Mon, Jul 13, 2015, 6:24 PM UTC

Rapidwire wrote: post #62

afar wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah... I mean I appreciate that people pay lip-service to privacy but a surveillance camera that counts you as a distinct individual without your consent is an invasion of privacy. The cost is higher than the price tag, homie. Edit I am an employee of Density and definitely biased.

If a camera films you while you are on someone else's property, then I'd argue it isn't an invasion of privacy since there was no expectation of privacy to begin with. Also, it would be nice if you would identify yourself as an employee of Density when you post comments.

I agree. But I think there should be a distinction between being on someone's property and being recorded for security and being in a cafe, having your face recognized as someone that frequented a sex shop last week, pairing that with an online profile, and then being pushed a retargeted ad campaign about your fetish.

Re: Show HN: Density – Anonymous People Counter and API

#73

Post by dfine » Mon, Jul 13, 2015, 6:33 PM UTC

afar wrote: post #51

sultanofsaltin wrote: post #36

Don't camera systems beat this in pretty much every way? http://www.placemeter.com/ comes to mind. You don't have to resort to infrared sensors in order to provide anonymity, but they do inherently limit you potential accuracy and metrics you can prodive. It all comes down to where the data is processed and what is made available. Also, cheap camera components are coming down fast due to economies of scale, not sure…

Yeah... I mean I appreciate that people pay lip-service to privacy but a surveillance camera that counts you as a distinct individual without your consent is an invasion of privacy. The cost is higher than the price tag, homie. Edit I am an employee of Density and definitely biased.

I am a PM at Placemeter. We do not "use facial recognition software" in our algorithms, as Density's website claims of video-based systems. None of our algorithms use biometric markers for our counting—we're essentially the same "dumb" counters as Density's IR with the added advantage of accuracy and area of coverage.

Placemeter does much more than pay lip service to privacy. We pride ourself on our privacy efforts. If you want to lear more about them, @afar email me: david@placemeter.com

Re: Show HN: Density – Anonymous People Counter and API

#74

Post by eevilspock » Mon, Jul 13, 2015, 6:33 PM UTC

kefka wrote: post #71

Ok. So businesses already have cameras. Yeah, privacy, schmiravacy. That horse has done gone left the barn. So, the second problem with cameras/face tracking is cost? I wrote this: https://github.com/jwcrawley/uWho It does what your hardware does, but also does facial recognition. It's still early in the build process, but I'm working on a commercial (non-QT) version of this. But right now, it can accurately count un…

> Yeah, privacy, schmiravacy. That horse has done gone left the barn.

So you're using the slippery slope as justification and welcome sign instead of warning. The world is all downhill from here exactly because people don't have the integrity and courage to resist.

Also

Re: Show HN: Density – Anonymous People Counter and API

#75

Post by ChuckMcM » Mon, Jul 13, 2015, 6:33 PM UTC

This is pretty awesome. I mentioned doing something like this at the IoT talk I gave, I had read a paper on counting animals by their heat signature for conservation purposes and thought something along those lines would be a simple replacement for the 'walk through the door ring a bell' detectors, and given that a 32bit ARM Cortex-M is about $1.25 you could do that for not much more money than the old light + photocell.

Something the paper pointed out was that while the temperature from animal to animal varied, the same animal often kept the same temperature (+/- epsilon) when moving from sensor to sensor and that give some idea of uniqueness.

And while I also love kefka's solution I think the face recognition stuff gets a more Orwellian reaction than just tracking heat sources.

Re: Show HN: Density – Anonymous People Counter and API

#76

Post by Animats » Mon, Jul 13, 2015, 6:34 PM UTC

The site is rather vague. They provide the hardware and install it for free, which implies they're selling data to someone else. Who? There's no privacy policy. No terms of service. The "order" button just brings up a blank email.

How does the device tell how many people are present based on counting at a doorframe? Is it counting people passing through the door? Does it detect direction? Is it good enough to estimate the number of people inside by subtracting out counts from in counts? Will this work for wide entrances, such as malls? Is this a passive infrared sensor? Those go blind in hot weather.

This looks like a cheaper alternative to video counting systems, of which there are many. Video systems get about 98% count accuracy. If you already have surveillance cameras, you can often use them for counting. Beyond that, there's queue measurement - not just how many people are in line, but how many gave up and left without buying.[1] (Seven people in a queue is the tipping point – any longer and most shoppers won’t bother joining it. After 9 minutes, shoppers are likely to give up queuing and leave empty handed (other research says as little 6 minutes). 70% of customers who leave never come back.)

[1] http://www.retailsensing.com/queue-management.html

Re: Show HN: Density – Anonymous People Counter and API

#77

Post by tyho » Mon, Jul 13, 2015, 6:37 PM UTC

Why does this need to connect to your servers? What happens if you become insolvent? Why can't I just buy the damn thing then use it? Why do I have to pay for a subscription to a service which is effectively a simple proxy between the device and my infrastructure?

Re: Show HN: Density – Anonymous People Counter and API

#78

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jul 13, 2015, 6:39 PM UTC

crindy wrote: post #29

dhaivatpandya wrote: post #21

Fantastic product idea and a landing page that's so good that I figured out what the product does without touching my scroll wheel. I wish however, you'd include a section that provides a reasonable explanation as to why Workroom got a 950% increase in traffic. I'm thinking that if I saw that a place was full, I'd be less likely to head over there. But, if I didn't know, I'd probably give it a whirl. Alternatively, i…

I think the idea would be that this helps fill dead times. If the place is full, they don't need/want more people showing up just to be turned away. If the place is empty, then they want to advertise that to fill it back up. Also though, I think it was a 950% increase in traffic to the web pages powered by this product, not to the actual locations.

[deleted]

Re: Show HN: Density – Anonymous People Counter and API

#79

Post by toomuchtodo » Mon, Jul 13, 2015, 6:39 PM UTC

pdeuchler wrote: post #53

codeshaman wrote: post #7

>> "After adding Density, we saw as much as a 950% increase in site traffic to supported locations. Our users love it." - Darren Buckner, Workfrom CEO When I use google maps, it shows me how busy various roads are and it also chooses the fastest route based on how fluid the traffic is. Seems like google maps is just observing the world and making decisions based on those observations. Now I was wondering, what if all…

I live in Boulder and this happens all the time during ski season. When traveling towards I-70 there's a longer, more circuitous route which breaks off of Highway 6 and goes through Idaho Springs. This path is longer, but cuts off the beginning of the initial drive into the Front Range... it's also just a two lane mountain road. Sometimes google maps will detect heavy traffic on I-70 and start re-routing drivers the…

Would you be willing to report this to the Maps team? If not, just reply and I'll get in touch with someone about it.

Re: Show HN: Density – Anonymous People Counter and API

#80

Post by toomuchtodo » Mon, Jul 13, 2015, 6:40 PM UTC

afar wrote: post #37

robotnoises wrote: post #26

Had no idea what this was. Clicked link. Within one minute I figured out what Density is. Nice job on the landing page! IMO, this is the strongest section: http://www.density.io/#comparison

At one point we went as far as to quiz our moms. "Mom, what does Density do? What does it cost? Do we sell surveillance cameras?" After she got 9/10 correct (she's 58)... she looks at me and says, "Ship it, Andrew. Ship it."

"Hacker News Tested, Mom Approved".