Live data from Hacker News

Show HN: Freenet, a peer-to-peer platform for decentralized apps

freenet.org

71–80 of 302 posts

Re: Show HN: Freenet, a peer-to-peer platform for decentralized apps

#71
post #5

Very cool project! > We've developed a unique (AFAIK) solution to the consistency problem, every contract must define a "merge" operation for the contract's associated state. This operation must be commutative, meaning that you can merge multiple states in any order and you'll get the same end result. Where can I learn more about this? How is this different from CRDTs/CmRDTs?

It looks a lot like a CvRDT (i.e. a state-based CRDT). They describe it as a commutative monoid, which means it has associativity and commutativity. CvRDTs also need idempotence, so they can handle duplicate data. Either they are idempotent too (which would make it semilattice-like), or the network protocol handles the deduplication outside of the data itself. Letting the payload/application define the merge operatio…

This is broadly correct.

> CvRDTs also need idempotence, so they can handle duplicate data. Either they are idempotent too (which would make it semilattice-like), or the network protocol handles the deduplication outside of the data itself.

Freenet's summary/delta synchronization mechanism implicitly disregards duplicate updates. The idea is that a peer A creates a "summary" of a contract's state which is sent to the other peer B which then creates a "delta", which contains anything in B's state that isn't in A's state. The delta is then sent from B to A bringing A's state up-to-date. Thus the contract defines a custom synchronization mechanism for its state which can be very efficient.

These summaries and deltas are just arbitrary bytes as far as the framework is concerned, their meaning is entirely up to the contract.

> The other bit Freenet has added is doing all this with DHT routing and subscriptions, rather than a more basic peer mesh. This is very different to a blockchain and means it probably isn't suited for anything transactional.

That's correct, Freenet doesn't guarantee a global consensus although in practice contract states will converge within a few seconds. This is good enough for applications like group chat and social networks but for a cryptocurrency you still need to solve the double-spend and global ordering problems.

Re: Show HN: Freenet, a peer-to-peer platform for decentralized apps

#74
post #44
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our intention is that Freenet will only consume surplus resources, but we plan to build a reputation system that could have a notion of "karma" that is earned by providing resources to the network. This karma could be used to gate access to resources, for example like a VIP chat room on River. So there are a lot of possibilities but for now users are motivated by a desire to see the network succeed, and that seems to…

Seems reasonable to build a cryptocurrency around this. The network could pay the cryptocurrency out to users dedicating resources. Have you thought about that?

Cryptocurrencies have a toxic reputation. Associating one to this project is a sure path to killing it.

Re: Show HN: Freenet, a peer-to-peer platform for decentralized apps

#76
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Notably this project was conceived by a backroom decision to dump the original Freenet development team's work, This is a false narrative, from the Freenet FAQ[1]: Why was Freenet rearchitected and rebranded? In 2019, Ian began developing a successor to the original Freenet, internally named “Locutus.” This redesign was a ground-up reimagining, incorporating lessons learned from the original Freenet and addressing…

> and after over a year of debate There was no "year of debate". You came to the mailing list and announced it for the first time as a finalized decision already, without any prior debate with the original team. The "board" you cited as the body which allegedly discussed it did neither join the mailing list discussion, nor were you willing to hand out their contact info. It's all public for anyone to see on the maili…

WTF. These are some of the first things I clicked through on that page:

- https://www.mail-archive.com/devl@freenetproject.org/msg5534...

- https://www.mail-archive.com/devl@freenetproject.org/msg5534...

Gee, I can't imagine how that mailing list could ever be toxic.

Re: Show HN: Freenet, a peer-to-peer platform for decentralized apps

#77
post #7

Neat. I've been wanting to see WASM-defined network behavior like this for a while (yay arbitrary consistency algorithms!), I'll have to explore it in more detail :) (the main thing I've been wanting to try: rather than graphql, send a WASM blob along with your request to a server, and just run it to filter fields in the response / pipeline requests / define "fail if any err / pair errors with requests" for concurren…

Thank you, that's actually an idea I considered a while ago - embed some wasm in a GET request (which retrieves complete contract state from the network) that could pre-process the state before returning it to the requestor.

The issue was that Freenet requires that intermediate peers can cache the contract state as they're passing it back to the requestor so in the end I decided against it, but might revisit in the future.

Re: Show HN: Freenet, a peer-to-peer platform for decentralized apps

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and after over a year of debate There was no "year of debate". You came to the mailing list and announced it for the first time as a finalized decision already, without any prior debate with the original team. The "board" you cited as the body which allegedly discussed it did neither join the mailing list discussion, nor were you willing to hand out their contact info. It's all public for anyone to see on the maili…

WTF. These are some of the first things I clicked through on that page: - https://www.mail-archive.com/devl@freenetproject.org/msg5534... - https://www.mail-archive.com/devl@freenetproject.org/msg5534... Gee, I can't imagine how that mailing list could ever be toxic.

Not sure what you mean but I stand by every word I said in that thread.

Re: Show HN: Freenet, a peer-to-peer platform for decentralized apps

#79
post #68
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In principle but we don't yet support mobile except experimentally, in part due to mobile OS restrictions (eg. iOS apps can't embed webassembly).

But not a problem in theory for Android and Ubuntu Touch systems?

Yes, iOS is the main headache. The other issue is that people probably won't want it using their mobile network bandwidth in the background, but that's solvable.

Re: Show HN: Freenet, a peer-to-peer platform for decentralized apps

#80
post #31
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There was no "year of debate". Incorrect, I raised the issue with the lead maintainer over a year prior to that announcement. > You came to the mailing list and declared it as a finalized decision. As the project's architect I'm entitled to make decisions about the project's future direction. > It's all public for anyone to see on the mailing list archive: > https://www.mail-archive.com/devl@freenetproject.org/msg5…

For anyone confused, link is cited badly and mail did not get deleted. https://www.mail-archive.com/devl@freenetproject.org/msg5526...

seems freenet is not free after all, maybe a rebrand to ianet would be more appropriate
Post reply on HN