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Show HN: Every problem and solution in Beyond Cracking the Coding Interview

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Re: Show HN: Every problem and solution in Beyond Cracking the Coding Interview

#71

Post by daseiner1 »

Spivak wrote: post #46
jwmoz wrote: post #40

'Principal' developer at my last place spent 100 consecutive days grinding leetcode. Shortly after had an interview where they made him do a leetcode test live and he failed it. The whole thing is broken.

It's a whole separate skill to be able to code with an audience, let alone an audience who is judging you. I could forgive a non-technical interviewer not knowing this but surely someone who is a dev themselves understands the very real performance anxiety. It's bonkers why we do this to people— the best I've seen is the in person talks about their experience, architecture, problems they've encountered and how they s…

A good analogy I’ve been told is the NFL combine. Vertical jump, straight-line speed, and bench press performances are probably moderately correlated with on-field performance, but the best test of playing the game is playing the game.

I more understand the emphasis on leetcode problems for juniors but a timed session without an observer (perhaps with browser tracking) to solve those problems makes a lot more sense than bringing in the anxiety of the observer, as you’ve noted. It sucks having to spend mental energy wondering how your problem-solving looks to whoever’s watching and seems actively detrimental to assessing talent for an IC role.

Re: Show HN: Every problem and solution in Beyond Cracking the Coding Interview

#72

Post by w0mbat »

Spivak wrote: post #46
jwmoz wrote: post #40

'Principal' developer at my last place spent 100 consecutive days grinding leetcode. Shortly after had an interview where they made him do a leetcode test live and he failed it. The whole thing is broken.

It's a whole separate skill to be able to code with an audience, let alone an audience who is judging you. I could forgive a non-technical interviewer not knowing this but surely someone who is a dev themselves understands the very real performance anxiety. It's bonkers why we do this to people— the best I've seen is the in person talks about their experience, architecture, problems they've encountered and how they s…

I can't code with somebody looking over my shoulder. I need to relax and think about the task. They expect me to code while being judged by one or more strangers, against the clock, with high stakes involved. If that was the actual job I would not apply for it.

Re: Show HN: Every problem and solution in Beyond Cracking the Coding Interview

#73

Post by hnthrow90348765 »

serial_dev wrote: post #63
HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Principal Engineer level shouldn't even be tested on leetcode. There are far more important things to know about that candidate.

Some basic level of leetcoding should be fine to verify that the candidate can at least code and is not only a bullshit artist who jumps from one position to the next, failing upwards. I had some interviews, not at the principal level, we had a couple of candidates who were very good during the informal interviews, they could hold a conversation about technology, but they couldn’t code the simplest of problems. I kno…

Lots of reasons you can fail an interview, doesn't mean they're a bullshit artist. If we want to be intellectually honest about this process (letting a candidate prove themselves), the least we could do is offer different formats for people to pick from: leetcode live coding, take-home, pair coding, PR review, etc.

What is key is letting the candidate decide the format they're best at.

Leetcode's signal is pretty bad compared to pair coding/PR reviews IMHO. And if the job genuinely involves writing algorithms, you can put algorithms in the code and have them go over that.

Take home is probably the most vulnerable to cheating, but if you have them code review it afterwards, it's detectable fairly easily.

Re: Show HN: Every problem and solution in Beyond Cracking the Coding Interview

#74

Post by hatradiowigwam »

Uehreka wrote: post #67
HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Principal Engineer level shouldn't even be tested on leetcode. There are far more important things to know about that candidate.

I don’t get why people act like terms like “Principal Engineer” have an agreed-upon specific meaning that can be used in cross-company discussions. At most places I’ve worked the titles were a duct taped hierarchy born of “we needed to give so-and-so another raise but had run out of non-manager titles, so here’s Senior Software Engineer II”

FWIW, the "principal" part implies a few things no matter which org... they should be able to manage a project from start to finish, mentor juniors, and make confident correct architectural decisions.

If you've ever hired a plumber or electrician, you might have gotten a crew of younger apprentices, maybe a journeyman, and an older "master" plumber or electrician. Most of the master's time is spent with the critical mechanical tasks, solving problems that occur, and directing those other tradesmen. The principal is the 1 person who can do _any_ of the other's job if they are unavailable. They are also the 1 person (and ideally the only 1 person) who makes "the plan" for how the work will proceed, and also decides when a project is complete.

The crucial difference (well, one of many?) between a principal-level engineer, and any type of management...is that the principal-level engineer should be able to do every junior engineer's job in a pinch - expertly, and with confidence and adapability to problems.

Re: Show HN: Every problem and solution in Beyond Cracking the Coding Interview

#76

Post by hnthrow90348765 »

dimgl wrote: post #36
paxys wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People keep saying this, but no one ever shares any meaningful data to make their case. Tech companies have been using Leetcode-style interviews to hire programmers for decades, and have grown in value from nothing to trillions of dollars in that time. The industry as a whole is worth tens of trillions, and the software these fake Leetcode programmers have built has eaten the world. Large companies have all spent bil…

I used to agree with the anti-Leetcode sentiment like the OP, but changed my tune fairly quickly once I started doing actual production-grade software engineering that goes beyond just simple CRUD and realized the things that Leetcode tests are applicable everywhere. It just kinda clicked one day for me and I started passing Leetcode assessments. Sure, some interviews are pretty hard and some algorithms/data structur…

The problem is leetcode interviews for CRUD jobs, and there is no accountability to really stop that.

This is in part due to job titles being meaningless. Senior Software Engineer has a very large dynamic range of technical ability needed when looking industry-wide. For example, if "Developer" was the non-leetcode title, and "Engineer" was the leetcode title (with harder interviews and higher pay), it'd make things a lot more understandable for everyone.

Re: Show HN: Every problem and solution in Beyond Cracking the Coding Interview

#77

Post by w0mbat »

paxys wrote: post #35
AndrewStephens wrote: post #24

Cracking the Code Interview is a great book and excellent for practice and brushing up. But I have found leet-code questions terrible for actually interviewing candidates. A lot of them boil down to whether the candidate knows the specific trick or can regurgitate the memorized solution. (Maybe I am just bitter because I have more than once bombed a leet-code interview myself) I interview a lot of people and my go-to…

People keep saying this, but no one ever shares any meaningful data to make their case. Tech companies have been using Leetcode-style interviews to hire programmers for decades, and have grown in value from nothing to trillions of dollars in that time. The industry as a whole is worth tens of trillions, and the software these fake Leetcode programmers have built has eaten the world. Large companies have all spent bil…

It's not a static situation. The questions have changed, to the point where solving them in interview conditions is a separate skill. When I interviewed people at Google, I asked interesting but quite simple questions and they gave me all the information I needed. As a candidate doing interviews elsewhere I have often been asked questions that are way too complicated to actually solve in the time.

How we got to this point : as average candidates train more in interview-coding, the interviewers pick harder and harder questions. It's got to the point where the only way to reliably pass is to have pre-canned memorized solutions to hundreds of existing questions. It's an arms race divorced from the reality of the job, which is done with real world tasks, privacy, little time pressure, and access to reference materials.

Re: Show HN: Every problem and solution in Beyond Cracking the Coding Interview

#78

Post by leeny »

OnionBlender wrote: post #75

I wish I could just submit my solution and be told if it passes instead of dealing with the AI Interviewer. A lot of problems don't have a leetcode equivalent.

You can try to short-circuit the AI Interviewer by just entering your solution into the IDE. OR you can ask to end the interview, and then you'll get a link to the solution.

We built it this way on purpose, though... the intent is to mimic an interview and gently force you to talk through your thought process, not to have yet another LeetCode clone.

Re: Show HN: Every problem and solution in Beyond Cracking the Coding Interview

#79

Post by neilv »

colordrops wrote: post #57
HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Principal Engineer level shouldn't even be tested on leetcode. There are far more important things to know about that candidate.

I interviewed at Amazon for a principle engineering position - got the interview as my resume has some pretty high profile accomplishments. But they just asked me leetcode questiins all day. I don't practice leetcoding so needless to say I didn't do well. Everyone there looked tired and worn out, probably dodged a bullet.

I was approached for Principal at AWS by the team's hiring manager, and I liked them, and was interested in the team's work. But when they couldn't exempt me from the company-standard initial coding screen, I withdrew my application.

I'm sure the manager was great, but we've all heard of some less-desirable aspects of working at Amazon, and I wouldn't want to go there without a sign that I'd be shielded a bit.

So, I've made the "corporate drone coding screen", and Leetcode interviews in general, my own metric. If a company does it, they fail the interview.

And if I'm having a moment of weakness, and considering submitting to some techbro frat hazing, I remind myself that, if I was willing to do that, I would've gone to Google already, which usually would've preferable to whatever opportunity this other company is dangling.

Re: Show HN: Every problem and solution in Beyond Cracking the Coding Interview

#80

Post by hakkotsu »

joshdavham wrote: post #64

I think the reason leetcode problems are still popular is because they test whether a candidate is willing to work hard (‘grind’) on problems that don’t even matter. A lot like what actually goes on at a FAANG company.

Hard disagree. At FAANG companies, working on problems that "don't matter" is exactly how you get a "Meets Some" or worse at your next perf review. These companies are obsessed with measurable impact - you need to show clear business value, user metrics, or revenue impact. Spend 6 months grinding on irrelevant work and you'll be on a PIP in a blink of an eye
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