Show HN: Python can make 3M+ WebSocket keys per second • Hacker News Board

Re: Show HN: Python can make 3M+ WebSocket keys per second

#71

Post by throwaway2037 » Fri, Jul 07, 2023, 3:50 PM UTC

steveBK123 wrote: post #67

wheelerof4te wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Python is Bash++. Always was, always will be.

But as a signifier it’s actually the opposite. Someone that knows bash in 2023 is likely a decent well rounded dev. Python in 2023 doesn’t even imply the ability to program.

Ouch. I know the feeling. Is your thinking: If they can program in Bash, they have learned how to program in many other languages, and Bash is their glue to make stuff "schedulable" via crontab, (dreaded) AutoSys, k8s, etc.? For me, learning how to program /OK/ in Bash has been a very difficult journey -- as difficult as Perl and Python, due to insanely weak typing. You are always fighting unknowns when you receive some function parameters.

Related: When I search for help on a Python foundation library or built-in funciton, my Google search results are overwhelmed by "learn-to-program"-type of websites. I guess it makes sense: During the gold rush, don't dig for gold, rather sell shovels!

Re: Show HN: Python can make 3M+ WebSocket keys per second

#72

Post by throwaway2037 » Fri, Jul 07, 2023, 3:52 PM UTC

criley2 wrote: post #20

throwaway2037 wrote: post #3

The hardest part of debugging Python is "hitting the wall" when you come to a native library (compiled C code). And Python has achieved a lot of speed-ups from Py2 to Py3 by adding more compiled C code. This is a real blocker for understanding the foundation library. On the other hand, in Java, with a few exceptions around Swing (native painting for GUIs) in Java, almost everything is written in pure Java, so you can…

On the other hand, you still have to learn and use Java. I think learning Python and a touch of C is easier than trying to learn Java. Heck I'd go so far as to say C is a lot easier than Java. Frankly I don't understand why having to learn a little bit of C to debug a python program is such a red flag or wall to you, considering the sheer amount of learning one has to do to use Java at all. You're setting up an uber-…

This post assumes that I don't already know C. I do. The real problem is friction. Being able to debug from Python code into C code is super hard, even in 2023. If you are in the same language (and debug session), the friction is so much lower.

Re: Show HN: Python can make 3M+ WebSocket keys per second

#73

Post by throwaway2037 » Fri, Jul 07, 2023, 3:55 PM UTC

post-it wrote: post #30

criley2 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, you still have to learn and use Java. I think learning Python and a touch of C is easier than trying to learn Java. Heck I'd go so far as to say C is a lot easier than Java. Frankly I don't understand why having to learn a little bit of C to debug a python program is such a red flag or wall to you, considering the sheer amount of learning one has to do to use Java at all. You're setting up an uber-…

> You're setting up an uber-sophisticated IDE You just install it. > learning a little C and potentially fixing an up-to-date and beloved library A romantic thought, but 99% of the time I'm just going to do a workaround or a local patch. I don't use Java anymore, but I don't hate it. I think it has some verbose conventions, but I vastly prefer it to C's extremely terse conventions. Nowadays I try to do as much in Typ…

    uber-sophisticated IDE

I love this. As if any developer is not much more productive with a 4GB+ RAM IDE churning away at their code base and suggesting all sorts of things as you write code. OMG: See ClangTidy! All C++ IDEs these days are either directly incorpating ClangTidy, or copying its features. When I use CLion, as a medium-level C++ programmer, it is scary how good are the suggestions from ClangTidy!

Re: Show HN: Python can make 3M+ WebSocket keys per second

#74

Post by throwaway2037 » Fri, Jul 07, 2023, 3:56 PM UTC

uranusjr wrote: post #15

PhilipRoman wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are python debuggers really unable to integrate with something like GDB? I have no problem debugging native calls from Java. During development I've never seen a case where library source was unavailable. Even proprietary components from other companies come with source included.

I feel it’s less about instrumentation but more about Python developers understanding C code.

No, as a "fluent C speaker", the instrumentation part is much harder than understanding the C code.

Re: Show HN: Python can make 3M+ WebSocket keys per second

#75

Post by steveBK123 » Fri, Jul 07, 2023, 5:08 PM UTC

throwaway2037 wrote: post #71

steveBK123 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But as a signifier it’s actually the opposite. Someone that knows bash in 2023 is likely a decent well rounded dev. Python in 2023 doesn’t even imply the ability to program.

Ouch. I know the feeling. Is your thinking: If they can program in Bash, they have learned how to program in many other languages, and Bash is their glue to make stuff "schedulable" via crontab, (dreaded) AutoSys, k8s, etc.? For me, learning how to program /OK/ in Bash has been a very difficult journey -- as difficult as Perl and Python, due to insanely weak typing. You are always fighting unknowns when you receive s…

Lots of schools / boot camps / etc churning out people who "know python" but are not "python devs". Think - data scientists / data analysts / stats / business analysts / etc.. who need to monkey around in some data, and are like slightly more than an Excel power user.

On the other hand, no one is doing the same for Bash.

You are using Bash because you know how to program something else and need to schedule it / wrap it in a shell script / etc. The fact that someone even knows Bash exists is a filter. Having an idea of where you might need to use it, a second filter. And having successfully done so, a third filter.