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Show HN: Correct Horse Battery Staple password generator

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Re: Show HN: Correct Horse Battery Staple password generator

#71

Post by atoponce »

I audit web-based password generators as a hobby, and this one does well.

What it does well on:

The source code is open source licensed. Passwords are generated in the client, not on the server. The generator is random. The generator is cryptographically secure. The generator is unbiased. Mobile devices are supported. There are no JavaScript trackers loaded on the page. The site is not calling out to external resources without SRI.

Unfortunately, by only choosing 4 random words, the security margin of the passphrase is 52 bits (13 bits per word). This is practical for a hobbyist password cracker to exhaust in an offline attack. The security would be better if 6 random words were chosen instead.

Audit: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ucaqJ4U3X3nNEbAAa06i...

Re: Show HN: Correct Horse Battery Staple password generator

#72

Post by atoponce »

quantum5 wrote: post #30
perl4ever wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about https://www.random.org/ ? Why even use a PRNG if you can have the real thing?

Because instead of just trusting your system, you'd also have to trust an external service to remain honest. CSPRNG is widely deemed acceptable for use as key material (unlike standard PRNGs), so there is no reason to add an external dependency.

Further, sufficiently seeded cryptographically secure RNGs are indistinguishable from true random white noise, so from a practical perspective, there is no point to require "true random".

Re: Show HN: Correct Horse Battery Staple password generator

#73

Post by throwaway8941 »

If I may egregiously misuse the famous quote, "those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly."

    $ shuf --random-source=/dev/urandom -n6 /usr/share/dict/cracklib-small | paste -sd-
    circulant-conjured-reigning-buzzed-awaiting-typifies

Re: Show HN: Correct Horse Battery Staple password generator

#75

Post by ThA0x2 »

1e-9 wrote: post #53
ThA0x2 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RHEL 5 is from 2007, and is already past end of life (end of extended support is this November). RHEL 6 is from 2009, and it's end of life is this November. Both of those OS are not from 2013 or later. They may have minor versions that were released later, but minor versions typically don't make significant changes to core packages. RHEL 7 (2014) and Ubuntu 13.04 both have coreutils 8.20 or newer.

RHEL 6 ELS will be supported until 2024. My comments are not contradictory to your point about 2013. They are only meant to make people aware that there are supported OS versions in use that have this issue.

RHEL 6 is end of life (product retirement) this November. ELS indeed extends out till 2024, but that's after the product has been officially retired/EOLed.

Essentially, come November, there will not be a generally supported Linux OS that will have this issue.

Re: Show HN: Correct Horse Battery Staple password generator

#76

Post by ThA0x2 »

dllthomas wrote: post #43
ThA0x2 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

shuf uses randint(), which defaults to /dev/urandom as the nonce source: https://github.com/coreutils/coreutils/blob/v8.31/gl/lib/ran... It's going to be as practical to attack as anything that uses /dev/urandom.

For sufficiently recent versions of shuf. It looks (... at a skim of the history, I could be confused) like older versions use pid, ppid, uid, gid, and time. In that case that's likely to be more practical than brute force if you've generated a password with notionally more than ~40 bits of entropy. That said, I suspect most people are indeed on a platform with a sufficiently recent version of shuf. (And a sufficient…

RHEL 6 will be EOLd this November. That's the last supported version of RHEL that has this issue. Ubuntu 13.04, RHEL 7 and later don't suffer from this issue.

I'd say almost everyone reading these comments is on a platform that does not suffer from this issue.

Re: Show HN: Correct Horse Battery Staple password generator

#77

Post by 1e-9 »

ThA0x2 wrote: post #75
1e-9 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RHEL 6 ELS will be supported until 2024. My comments are not contradictory to your point about 2013. They are only meant to make people aware that there are supported OS versions in use that have this issue.

RHEL 6 is end of life (product retirement) this November. ELS indeed extends out till 2024, but that's after the product has been officially retired/EOLed. Essentially, come November, there will not be a generally supported Linux OS that will have this issue.

You seem to be arguing that there will be no need to use the --random-source option after November. If so, that is incorrect in my view.

ELS versions receive critical security fixes and urgent bug fixes until the end of their support. They are used right up to end of support, or even beyond in some cases.

RHEL 5 ELS will be supported thru November 30, 2020 and RHEL 6 ELS will be supported thru June 30, 2024.

This implies there will be RHEL 5 ELS users for at least 5 more months and there will be RHEL 6 ELS users for at least 4 more years.

So, for at least four more years, it appears there will be users who should use the --random-source option with shuf if they want to be cryptographically secure.

Re: Show HN: Correct Horse Battery Staple password generator

#78

Post by quantum5 »

atoponce wrote: post #71

I audit web-based password generators as a hobby, and this one does well. What it does well on: The source code is open source licensed. Passwords are generated in the client, not on the server. The generator is random. The generator is cryptographically secure. The generator is unbiased. Mobile devices are supported. There are no JavaScript trackers loaded on the page. The site is not calling out to external resourc…

Thank you for the audit!

The default was chosen as 4 words due to usability concerns with longer passwords or more obscure words, but it is adjustable. The strength meter is yellow at 4 words to indicate the less-than-optimal entropy, but I felt it was better than turning a new user off by making it too hard to remember. But that's a decision I plan on revisiting.

If you are security conscious, you can save a more secure default for yourself (in local storage, nothing is ever transmitted to a server).

Re: Show HN: Correct Horse Battery Staple password generator

#79

Post by ThA0x2 »

1e-9 wrote: post #77
ThA0x2 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RHEL 6 is end of life (product retirement) this November. ELS indeed extends out till 2024, but that's after the product has been officially retired/EOLed. Essentially, come November, there will not be a generally supported Linux OS that will have this issue.

You seem to be arguing that there will be no need to use the --random-source option after November. If so, that is incorrect in my view. ELS versions receive critical security fixes and urgent bug fixes until the end of their support. They are used right up to end of support, or even beyond in some cases. RHEL 5 ELS will be supported thru November 30, 2020 and RHEL 6 ELS will be supported thru June 30, 2024. This imp…

>You seem to be arguing that there will be no need to use the --random-source option after November. If so, that is incorrect in my view.

The argument is that if you're on a currently supported, non-EOL Linux OS, you will not have this issue after November (since at that point in time, the RHEL 6 will be past end of life).

>ELS versions receive critical security fixes and urgent bug fixes until the end of their support. They are used right up to end of support, or even beyond in some cases, although that is certainly not recommended.

ELS versions are considered past EOL, and past Maintenance Support I & II. They will not be supported for new installs, will be out of compliance for PCI DSS, HIPPA, almost all third party vendor software, will not be certified on new hardware, etc. They are past their ten year lifecycle.

https://endoflife.software/operating-systems/linux/red-hat-e... https://access.redhat.com/support/policy/updates/errata/#Ext...

Of course the few people on RHEL 6 will have to use the additional --random-source option, but the amount of people that this affects is in the single percentage point, or less.

Nothing is stopping someone from spinning up RHEL 5 three years from now and running my original command.

My original statements and points stand true. You were originally wrong to think that shuf is cryptographically insecure. It's been cryptographically secure for quite a while now.

Re: Show HN: Correct Horse Battery Staple password generator

#80

Post by quantum5 »

pkhamre wrote: post #58
quantum5 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good idea, just added separators to the website.

You could(/should) add space and make it the default separator :)

Space support is included. You can save it as the default option if you want.
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