Show HN: Announcing 10x Management • Hacker News Board

Re: Show HN: Announcing 10x Management

#61

Post by fecak » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 5:06 PM UTC

danenania wrote: post #50

fecak wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the disconnect on this is how one will define celebrity/rock star type developers. I'm sure that ideally they feel they will be the agent to some of the bigger names in the business, who certainly don't need an agent for finding work but might like someone to handle their stuff. Through my work running a Java users group for 13 years, when I reach out to big name speakers my reply comes from an assistant that…

The thing is that "celebrity status" is only loosely correlated with engineering ability. Someone who blogs a lot, is involved with a popular product, or is just very social and charismatic can build up a big following and become a celebrity without necessarily being a great coder. Likewise, a lot of amazing engineers are so amazing precisely because they keep their heads in the code and technical concepts all day, a…

Agreed, just like you can be a celebrity and not have any skills whatsoever in the entertainment or reality TV world. I think their message isn't necessarily about celebrity status but about the quality of work. It says they've done code reviews and reference checks on the 10x site, so they are saying that they've vetted the talent. My guess is that the types of people represented are probably not what one would consider celebrities, as many can afford their own support staff (assistant, scheduler, accountant, etc.).

As an aside, there is some value to hiring celebrity status folks, regardless of their coding ability (helps with recruiting, name recognition, company status, etc.).

Re: Show HN: Announcing 10x Management

#62

Post by bicknergseng » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 5:15 PM UTC

nlh wrote: post #40

Something isn't sitting right with me about this. Let me explore (my gut may be wrong here)... I agree that it's important for freelance engineers and designers to have some business help. Being a good "creator" doesn't necessarily mean you're good at negotiations, and while its an important skill, there is something nice about being able to focus on doing the work (and doing a good job) vs having to find the clients…

>I think what's bothering me here is that these guys are perpetuating the notion that, literally, hiring a "celebrity"/"rock star" engineer/designer ("10xer") is something that folks should be paying a huge premium for.

Bugs me as well, but probably not for the same reason. It makes me sad how many programmers and engineers who aren't the mythical "rockstars" get left behind in all this. Average programmers. People who haven't founded their own company or created a popular software library, but are still capable of doing the work of a hundred number crunching people by themselves with a keyboard. So much rhetoric gets thrown around about ninjas and the skills gap, yet the median salary in the industry hasn't kept up with inflation in the past 15 years. A lot of time and industry effort is being spent on finding or importing people rather than supporting the ones they have or just hiring people and teaching them how to be more effective.

Re: Show HN: Announcing 10x Management

#63

Post by justinsb » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 5:16 PM UTC

I really like the emphasis on quality of talent. In my experience, too many recruitment agencies (the incumbents) are heavily focused on volume and optimize around their own compensation structure.

If 10x can stay focused only on genuine talent, giving the talent a steady flow of well-paying work from businesses that can't afford to have someone under-deliver, that seems like a win/win/win to me, and I'm sure they'll do well.

Re: Show HN: Announcing 10x Management

#64

Post by rglullis » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 5:21 PM UTC

fecak wrote: post #51

rglullis wrote: post #26

1) More important than deal flow, I could see myself working with something like that if it increased my hourly rate, and if it did so substantially. I am 100% positive that most of the jobs/projects I got into I left money on the table because I didn't want to put too much effort in the negotiation process and just wanted to work on interesting things. So it would be great if something like that managed to work as a…

Transparency is critical in all things related to recruiting (and tech talent management if it is to become a 'thing'). Most of the problems that arise are due to a lack of transparency and the recruiter's incentives. You wouldn't pay someone a percentage if it increased your rate by 20%? That seems a bit of a strange concept. Curious as to why not? Not sure what to make on your assumptions of the guys leading this a…

If my gross rate goes up by 20% and I need to give you a 10% cut, my net rate increase is 8% (possibly less depending on things like taxes). My lizard brain will either try to cut you out of the loop or just forget about the whole thing.

Also, social capital. If you are already somewhat networked and you start telling everyone to "talk to your agent", I would guess lots of people would turn up their noses. Yes, it should be an absolutely professional relationship and all, but just ask people in Cleveland about Lebron or people in Boston about Ray Allen how they feel about them leaving and you'll see that there is more to money in any kind of relationship.

Another reason: we computer people love automation and streamlining of processes. If this actually becomes a thing, you will start seeing lots of copycats or actual startups trying to emulate parts of whatever process become established. This would just lead to either a new market norm (like the way YC has changed seed-stage funding) or forcing players in this space to go for a new level of risk/reward (the high-6-7 figure earners)

About the "Jewish" part, again I apologize for my ignorance. I think I wrote Jewish when I meant Jew (as in ethnic/cultural background, not religion? Semitic would be better?) and I was just going for last names. Coincidentally, if I had to guess, Rosenhaus sounds like a Jewish name to me.

Re: Show HN: Announcing 10x Management

#65

Post by fecak » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 5:23 PM UTC

r00fus wrote: post #59

fecak wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Transparency is critical in all things related to recruiting (and tech talent management if it is to become a 'thing'). Most of the problems that arise are due to a lack of transparency and the recruiter's incentives. You wouldn't pay someone a percentage if it increased your rate by 20%? That seems a bit of a strange concept. Curious as to why not? Not sure what to make on your assumptions of the guys leading this a…

> You wouldn't pay someone a percentage if it increased your rate by 20%? That seems a bit of a strange concept. Curious as to why not? Because nothing is free. Adding an extra layer to the sales process costs more than 20% of my time. I can't speak for rglullis, but I'd only accept 20% it if I was incapable of finding additional clients.

Adding an extra layer to the sales process that will be handling the entire sales process should cost you no additional time at all - actually, the inverse is what they are proposing. The services I provide to my clients as a recruiter save them quite a bit of time - bringing them opportunities saves them research time, fixing up their resumes when necessary, scheduling interviews, negotiating, etc. All I do is save my candidates time, and that service is free to them. If I negotiate a higher rate than they would have negotiated on their own, even better. As an agent, I would be compensated based on two things - my ability to get you more money (higher rate, low amount of downtime) and save you time.

Re: Show HN: Announcing 10x Management

#66

Post by fecak » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 5:26 PM UTC

justinsb wrote: post #63

I really like the emphasis on quality of talent. In my experience, too many recruitment agencies (the incumbents) are heavily focused on volume and optimize around their own compensation structure. If 10x can stay focused only on genuine talent, giving the talent a steady flow of well-paying work from businesses that can't afford to have someone under-deliver, that seems like a win/win/win to me, and I'm sure they'll…

The hardest part of this is turning people down. Everyone feels they are high talent (almost everyone) or top 10%, but obviously they can't all be right. The amount of people they will have to reject could be enough to give people a negative impression of them - of how they evaluate and rate talent, elitism, etc. It will be interesting to see how it goes.

Tech pros love to hate how companies evaluate talent - tests, coding exercises, interviews, whiteboard work, Fermi problems. How they choose to evaluate talent, and whether they choose to tell some coders 'sorry, you aren't 10x material' will be very telling.

Re: Show HN: Announcing 10x Management

#67

Post by fecak » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 5:33 PM UTC

rglullis wrote: post #64

fecak wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Transparency is critical in all things related to recruiting (and tech talent management if it is to become a 'thing'). Most of the problems that arise are due to a lack of transparency and the recruiter's incentives. You wouldn't pay someone a percentage if it increased your rate by 20%? That seems a bit of a strange concept. Curious as to why not? Not sure what to make on your assumptions of the guys leading this a…

If my gross rate goes up by 20% and I need to give you a 10% cut, my net rate increase is 8% (possibly less depending on things like taxes). My lizard brain will either try to cut you out of the loop or just forget about the whole thing. Also, social capital. If you are already somewhat networked and you start telling everyone to "talk to your agent", I would guess lots of people would turn up their noses. Yes, it sh…

If your bill rate (paid by the company to me as your agent) is 100/hr, and you give me 10% (10/hr), your pay rate is now 90/hr. If I get 'us' a 20% increase, I'm now billing you at $120 - of that I'm taking 10% ($12), leaving you with $108. You just went from 90 to 108 (20% raise). Not sure where the net 8% is from that you mention.

Some might turn up noses if you say 'talk to my agent', because it is a new concept. That is expected. Change is hard.

Regarding the 'Jewish thing' again - let's just put that whole line of thinking to bed at this point, I think you may be digging the hole a bit deeper. I'm not sure that you've offended anyone just yet, but you may be on your way.

Re: Show HN: Announcing 10x Management

#68

Post by justinsb » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 5:34 PM UTC

fecak wrote: post #66

justinsb wrote: post #63

I really like the emphasis on quality of talent. In my experience, too many recruitment agencies (the incumbents) are heavily focused on volume and optimize around their own compensation structure. If 10x can stay focused only on genuine talent, giving the talent a steady flow of well-paying work from businesses that can't afford to have someone under-deliver, that seems like a win/win/win to me, and I'm sure they'll…

The hardest part of this is turning people down. Everyone feels they are high talent (almost everyone) or top 10%, but obviously they can't all be right. The amount of people they will have to reject could be enough to give people a negative impression of them - of how they evaluate and rate talent, elitism, etc. It will be interesting to see how it goes. Tech pros love to hate how companies evaluate talent - tests,…

Definitely agree - I don't think this aspect of 10x's focus will be easy. But that's what I'd be paying for as a 10x customer - that they've done the difficult job of telling people that are perfectly competent "thanks, but no thanks".

Re: Show HN: Announcing 10x Management

#69

Post by kybernetyk » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 5:48 PM UTC

fecak wrote: post #46

roc wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "This way the recruiter is rewarded for getting a higher rate, and the coder doesn't feel like a victim." Fair recruiter reward for results is also the case when the recruiter just takes a flat percentage. And in trying to define a 'minimum acceptable rate', you'd be incentivizing all sorts of odd behaviors, as recruiters would preference the gap between 'acceptable' and 'final' rate, rather than a higher final rat…

Fair recruiter reward for a flat percentage? Fair to the talent, certainly, but assuming I'm getting a low flat percentage that is much better for the talent. If I'm at 10%, you ask me for $100, and I get you $300 because I'm a master negotiator, I just made an extra $20/hr and you made an extra $180/hr. I did all the work there, didn't I? Is your coding going to be 3 times better because I negotiated you a 3 times b…

> I just made an extra $20/hr and you made an extra $180/hr

This is implying you would be negotiating as long as I will be coding. But once the client signs the contract your work is pretty much over and you will get $20/hr even if you sit at the pool.

Re: Show HN: Announcing 10x Management

#70

Post by hollerith » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 5:55 PM UTC

objclxt wrote: post #4

hollerith wrote: post #2

Does 10x take 10% of whatever the client makes?

10% would be on the low side for either a recruitment agency or, to run with the Ari Gold analogy, a talent agent. 15% would be more realistic, although I see recruiters trying to charge considerably more. Unscrupulous recruiters often will try to hide how much their cut is from their freelancers.

Recruitment agencies get paid by the employer. Hollywood talent agents in contrast, get paid by the talent.

Do you we know which party pays 10x?