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Show HN: Low-latency jamming over the internet

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Re: Show HN: Low-latency jamming over the internet

#61

Post by spenczar5 »

digitallyfree wrote: post #51
tomxor wrote: post #41

It's good that latency is considered to be so critical, but for the same reason I'm sceptical that this would work well for the majority beyond quite local ranges with very good internet connections i.e some kind of fiber... which most people don't have, although I realise a lot of the tech crowd is unaware of this (most of the worlds user end points are some kind of DSL or cell network with a 20-40ms minimum). If an…

Yeah, the hop to the internet exchange point is the main issue with DSL or cable. I live in a major city and it takes around 10ms to hit the internet exchange point (using Ethernet the LAN latency is neglegible) and thus I get a minimum of 20ms or so just connecting to a server hosted by someone in the same neighborhood. I've actually tried this experiment with some of my nearby friends - pinging each other's public…

Why does fiber have lower latency to the exchange than copper? That surprises me.

I thought that ISPs generally run fiber for most of the distance, and coax is only used for the last few hundred meters. The speed of signal propagation is actually faster in copper than fiber, but nobody (afaik?) does long runs over copper so it’s a moot point.

Re: Show HN: Low-latency jamming over the internet

#62

Post by iandanforth »

It would be fun to try to add a predictive layer to this:

- Given the score and what each person has just played predict what the next few sounds are going to be - Given a high frame rate video stream of a person predict what the next note to be played

In the same way that Nvidia has extremely low bandwidth but high resolution video enabled by face keypoint tracking and facial reconstruction / puppeteering maybe there's a place for prediction and/or sound reconstruction from extremely low bitrate streams.*

* Obviously not the exact usecase here since a premium is being placed on not processing, but still fun to think about.

Re: Show HN: Low-latency jamming over the internet

#63

Post by erik_p »

k__ wrote: post #8

I don't get these realtime collaborative streaming services. Streaming at home via wifi is already crappy, how should this ever work with more distance?

Well you get that there a need for it, and people are trying to find solutions to overcome the issue of latency, that's the whole point, isn't it?

Re: Show HN: Low-latency jamming over the internet

#64

Post by nemetroid »

rdtennent wrote: post #57

My experience with Jamulus might be instructive. Members of our group live in the same city (Kingston, Ontario) but use two ISPs. Packets between users on the same ISP were fine but packets from one ISP to the other were being routed via Toronto and then Chicago and ultimately back to Kingston. It's not the distance travelled that's the problem (speed of light), it's the latency introduced by each intermediate node.…

Had the same experience in Sweden. Between certain pairs of ISPs, all traffic was routed via one of the capital cities (Stockholm, Copenhagen, Oslo), adding 10-20 ms and jitter. Solved it by setting up a VPS at a provider with good connections to all ISPs involved.

Re: Show HN: Low-latency jamming over the internet

#65

Post by [deleted] »

arctan5x wrote: post #59

Checkout https://jacktrip.org/studio.html . We enable low latency audio connection through open source technology developed at Stanford. We can scale to hundreds of users signing at the same time. Check out hundreds of choir members signing together https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJgB5QmyDfU .

[deleted]

Re: Show HN: Low-latency jamming over the internet

#66

Post by jagger27 »

enlyth wrote: post #37
capableweb wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't use WiFi? Ethernet has way less latency. Combine with everyone being in the same city/region and using fiber network and latency should be really good. Otherwise, find friends that you have visibility with and setup a P2P WiFi via antennas/radios, you'll get insanely good latency.

This has not been my experience, with a dedicated PCIe wifi card, the difference in latency to when I plug in the ethernet cable is about 1ms, if even that, to the point it's not worth running cables.

In perfect circumstances, yeah of course WiFi is stable. If you live in a dense urban area with tons of WiFi noise latency tends to jitter quite a bit. This isn't a problem with Ethernet.

Re: Show HN: Low-latency jamming over the internet

#67

Post by porcc »

rdtennent wrote: post #57

My experience with Jamulus might be instructive. Members of our group live in the same city (Kingston, Ontario) but use two ISPs. Packets between users on the same ISP were fine but packets from one ISP to the other were being routed via Toronto and then Chicago and ultimately back to Kingston. It's not the distance travelled that's the problem (speed of light), it's the latency introduced by each intermediate node.…

How can you detect these node transfers? I run into similar problems often with WebRTC and I have found it troublesome to diagnose

Re: Show HN: Low-latency jamming over the internet

#68

Post by rdtennent »

porcc wrote: post #67
rdtennent wrote: post #57

My experience with Jamulus might be instructive. Members of our group live in the same city (Kingston, Ontario) but use two ISPs. Packets between users on the same ISP were fine but packets from one ISP to the other were being routed via Toronto and then Chicago and ultimately back to Kingston. It's not the distance travelled that's the problem (speed of light), it's the latency introduced by each intermediate node.…

How can you detect these node transfers? I run into similar problems often with WebRTC and I have found it troublesome to diagnose

traceroute

Re: Show HN: Low-latency jamming over the internet

#69

Post by rzzzt »

deeblering4 wrote: post #14

I think https://endlesss.fm got the approach to jamming over the internet right. Instead of trying to reduce latency (which you simply cannot do beyond speed of light) endlesss implements a shared “multiplayer” 8 track looper. Jammers add layers to the loop, which has a clock and supports sync via ableton live, external audio input, etc. Plus, every addition to the looper is saved/versioned. You can move backwards th…

NINJAM also works on the same principle: https://cockos.com/ninjam/

  > The NINJAM client records and streams synchronized 
  > intervals of music between participants. Just as the 
  > interval finishes recording, it begins playing on 
  > everyone else's client. So when you play through an 
  > interval, you're playing along with the previous 
  > interval of everybody else, and they're playing along 
  > with your previous interval.
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