Show HN: An Easy Programming Language That Runs in the Browser • Hacker News Board

Re: Show HN: An Easy Programming Language That Runs in the Browser

#61

Post by maemilius » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 5:29 PM UTC

dave84 wrote: post #40

rounce wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, the moment you dip into libraries you are dependent on someone else's work. Like every other programming language? > Then you run into a problem because Native doesnt let you use a specific library You are confusing runtime and language.

>> However, the moment you dip into libraries you are dependent on someone else's work. >Like every other programming language? The lack of a standard library means you'll be dipping in a lot sooner.

I don't really get this. How is any language's stdlib _not_ someone else's work? The language itself is "someone else's work".

The only difference, in my mind, between a "standard library" and a "third-party library" is the level of trust. If a third-party library is widely used by a community and known to be built by trustworthy people, I don't see how it's functionally different from a "standard" library.

EDIT: To clarify, I'm only trying to make a general statement about libraries, not the trustworthiness of any particular language's library landscape.

Re: Show HN: An Easy Programming Language That Runs in the Browser

#62

Post by pmarreck » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 5:30 PM UTC

thrower123 wrote: post #42

Kaveren wrote: post #8

I think there's more value to be had in building better learning resources around programming languages than continually trying to simplify them at the expense of power. Besides that, if someone is already looking for a simple scripting language, Lua already exists. I personally prefer its syntax as well.

Lua really is a nice little language. I do wish it had 0-based arrays like everything else in common use though.

Apparently it was an evolution of Sol, which wasn't designed for programmers.

You'd think that everyone in computer science would have read https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/ewd08xx/EWD831.PDF by now, though. Makes a fairly airtight case for zero-based indices.

I've noticed that in functional languages, the presence of enumeration operators makes indexing in any case almost entirely unnecessary. Perhaps the original problem was just a "design smell" all along.

Re: Show HN: An Easy Programming Language That Runs in the Browser

#63

Post by pmarreck » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 5:33 PM UTC

chkas wrote: post #23

pmarreck wrote: post #22

There should be something like this except functional/immutable

Many design decisions are based on keeping the language simple in syntax and semantics.

I have found that immutability is actually simpler to understand (and, potentially related, results in fewer bugs per LOC written), it's just that everyone's (including mine!) first language is usually procedural/mutable so that seems to be what is "easy"

Re: Show HN: An Easy Programming Language That Runs in the Browser

#64

Post by pmarreck » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 5:34 PM UTC

thanatropism wrote: post #13

chkas wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are so many programming languages - but imho not a real easy one for beginners.

Python? Python is really easy to learn and has reached VB levels of snowball network effects.

Python has a lot of weird/surprising corner cases. In fact I'd argue that Ruby, a similarly capable language, has a lot fewer warts, which is why it consistently surprises me that Python is "doing better than" Ruby.

https://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonWarts

Re: Show HN: An Easy Programming Language That Runs in the Browser

#65

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 5:40 PM UTC

mbel wrote: post #54

chkas wrote: post #11

What's under the hood? The source code is parsed to an AST , which is then executed. It began with a Java-Applet . When WebAssembly appeared, I ported it to C++ with a JS/HTML interface and added graphics. Recently I converted the C++ part to C , which halved the size of the wasm file.

> Recently I converted the C++ part to C, which halved the size of the wasm file. So you are saying that "costless" abstractions of C++ actually had some cost? Who would have thought.

[deleted]

Re: Show HN: An Easy Programming Language That Runs in the Browser

#66

Post by wrs » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 5:42 PM UTC

mbel wrote: post #54

chkas wrote: post #11

What's under the hood? The source code is parsed to an AST , which is then executed. It began with a Java-Applet . When WebAssembly appeared, I ported it to C++ with a JS/HTML interface and added graphics. Recently I converted the C++ part to C , which halved the size of the wasm file.

> Recently I converted the C++ part to C, which halved the size of the wasm file. So you are saying that "costless" abstractions of C++ actually had some cost? Who would have thought.

I believe the philosophy of C++ is that features you don’t use should have zero runtime cost.

Re: Show HN: An Easy Programming Language That Runs in the Browser

#67

Post by mayli » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 5:52 PM UTC

wrs wrote: post #66

mbel wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Recently I converted the C++ part to C, which halved the size of the wasm file. So you are saying that "costless" abstractions of C++ actually had some cost? Who would have thought.

I believe the philosophy of C++ is that features you don’t use should have zero runtime cost.

That's the philosophy of C, and most parts of C++.

Re: Show HN: An Easy Programming Language That Runs in the Browser

#68

Post by coldtea » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 5:59 PM UTC

mbel wrote: post #54

chkas wrote: post #11

What's under the hood? The source code is parsed to an AST , which is then executed. It began with a Java-Applet . When WebAssembly appeared, I ported it to C++ with a JS/HTML interface and added graphics. Recently I converted the C++ part to C , which halved the size of the wasm file.

> Recently I converted the C++ part to C, which halved the size of the wasm file. So you are saying that "costless" abstractions of C++ actually had some cost? Who would have thought.

>So you are saying that "costless" abstractions of C++ actually had some cost? Who would have thought.

Size obviously doesn't count. Obviously abstractions will produce more code.

Re: Show HN: An Easy Programming Language That Runs in the Browser

#69

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 6:04 PM UTC

tobyhinloopen wrote: post #21

Kaveren wrote: post #8

I think there's more value to be had in building better learning resources around programming languages than continually trying to simplify them at the expense of power. Besides that, if someone is already looking for a simple scripting language, Lua already exists. I personally prefer its syntax as well.

Lua might have little features and have a small footprint, but it's not simple to understand

[deleted]

Re: Show HN: An Easy Programming Language That Runs in the Browser

#70

Post by Skunkleton » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 6:06 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #68

mbel wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Recently I converted the C++ part to C, which halved the size of the wasm file. So you are saying that "costless" abstractions of C++ actually had some cost? Who would have thought.

> So you are saying that "costless" abstractions of C++ actually had some cost? Who would have thought. Size obviously doesn't count. Obviously abstractions will produce more code.

Size doesn't count?