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Show HN: Announcing 10x Management

10xmanagement.com

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Re: Show HN: Announcing 10x Management

#51

1) More important than deal flow, I could see myself working with something like that if it increased my hourly rate, and if it did so substantially. I am 100% positive that most of the jobs/projects I got into I left money on the table because I didn't want to put too much effort in the negotiation process and just wanted to work on interesting things. So it would be great if something like that managed to work as a…

Transparency is critical in all things related to recruiting (and tech talent management if it is to become a 'thing'). Most of the problems that arise are due to a lack of transparency and the recruiter's incentives.

You wouldn't pay someone a percentage if it increased your rate by 20%? That seems a bit of a strange concept. Curious as to why not?

Not sure what to make on your assumptions of the guys leading this and their possible religious background, but since you went there - the Ari Gold reference was one I made in a similar article about agents being a possibility in tech, and I chose Ari Gold not due to any religious concepts (for transparency, I'm not Jewish) but because that his style as an agent is what everyone seems to want and he is probably the most known agent (even though fictional) in the world. I could have picked Jerry Maguire, who would be a close second I'd think. I'd have mentioned Drew Rosenhaus, but tech folks seem more knowledgeable about TV than sports.

Re: Show HN: Announcing 10x Management

#52
post #12

I have direct personal experience with 10x and I highly recommend them. I found them to help me with a significant employment/management need. 10x focused on finding the best solution and provided ongoing contact and advice through the whole process. I don't get anything by recommending them. I do believe fully in their business and value.

It would be better if you expand a little about your experience with them, this just sounds like common spam.

Re: Show HN: Announcing 10x Management

#53
post #38

I sense a lot of negativity here. Engineers are not good at dealing with customers. They deal with the customers so engineers don't have to. They have people skills. They are good at dealing with people! Can't you guys understand that?

I see what you did there.. and I like it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAY27NU1Jog

Re: Show HN: Announcing 10x Management

#54
post #46
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "This way the recruiter is rewarded for getting a higher rate, and the coder doesn't feel like a victim." Fair recruiter reward for results is also the case when the recruiter just takes a flat percentage. And in trying to define a 'minimum acceptable rate', you'd be incentivizing all sorts of odd behaviors, as recruiters would preference the gap between 'acceptable' and 'final' rate, rather than a higher final rat…

Fair recruiter reward for a flat percentage? Fair to the talent, certainly, but assuming I'm getting a low flat percentage that is much better for the talent. If I'm at 10%, you ask me for $100, and I get you $300 because I'm a master negotiator, I just made an extra $20/hr and you made an extra $180/hr. I did all the work there, didn't I? Is your coding going to be 3 times better because I negotiated you a 3 times b…

> "I did all the work there, didn't I?"

The negotiating work, yeah. Which is why you're getting 10% of every hour of work that someone saw fit to pay $300/hr for, despite your effort being of a fairly fixed quantity of time.

And regardless of your negotiating, the client has the option of choosing from more than one candidate. So if they look at the $300/hr candidates and they choose hypothetical me, then my $100/hr ask and the huge delta is far more a function of my ignorance/naivete than your skill. [1]

> "I don't think agents can take advantage of coders who understand their value, as they are able to leave."

You wanted to minimize feelings of being taken advantage of. Which is simply not a concern of people who understand their value. So who else were you concerned about wronging, if not the people who do not understand their value?

And I'm not saying good relationships couldn't be had under the system you proposed. Just that you have some perverse incentives built-in that makes the antidote seem worse than the disease.

> " Take that incentive out entirely by showing your employees/contractors the invoices that you are billing the company."

That's a solid move. Though if you put the person who is advantaged by information mis-match in charge of erasing that mis-match, don't be surprised when short-cuts are taken. But that's simple enough to avoid by having administrative staff handle that directly.

> "[if] a recruiter is able to negotiate a rate well above market value, that isn't taking advantage of the coder - that is taking advantage of the company paying the higher rate."

Yes, but as we all know, one of those tasks is far easier and more common than the other.

[1] And I'm not trying to write off the value of skilled negotiators. I'm just saying that competition means you simply don't get huge deltas on negotiation alone.

Re: Show HN: Announcing 10x Management

#55

I'd like to see this in the UK, i've always said one day i'd start that kind of agency. This is a great idea.

It exists! We are building a community at YunoJuno that provides all the support of a large company, but for people who choose to be freelance. We're not quite as gung-ho as these guys - and we're not offering to manage your career - that's your business - but we do want to support talented freelancers in the creative (design, ux, dev) community. www.yunojuno.com (Oh, and we're not charging you anything - we charge t…

Is this just an umbrella company under other name?

Re: Show HN: Announcing 10x Management

#56
post #54
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair recruiter reward for a flat percentage? Fair to the talent, certainly, but assuming I'm getting a low flat percentage that is much better for the talent. If I'm at 10%, you ask me for $100, and I get you $300 because I'm a master negotiator, I just made an extra $20/hr and you made an extra $180/hr. I did all the work there, didn't I? Is your coding going to be 3 times better because I negotiated you a 3 times b…

> "I did all the work there, didn't I?" The negotiating work, yeah. Which is why you're getting 10% of every hour of work that someone saw fit to pay $300/hr for, despite your effort being of a fairly fixed quantity of time. And regardless of your negotiating, the client has the option of choosing from more than one candidate. So if they look at the $300/hr candidates and they choose hypothetical me , then my $100/hr…

Points well made, and in my position I'm able to argue both sides on this one. I should probably preface my comments with the fact that I have done contract work in the past, but for the last couple years I've focused almost entirely on permanent placement, and part of the reason is this lack of trust between coders and recruiters and this whole dialogue.

In perm placement the incentive of the recruiter is usually to maximize the coder's income (fee = n% of salary), but contract placement is the opposite (margin = bill rate - pay rate where minimizing pay rate leads to higher margin). I don't remember ever being accused of gouging by any coder as our margins were pretty low relative to others, but I would hate to have to explain/argue in the real world to a coder why my ability to negotiate a ridiculously high rate deserves to be rewarded (and as I said earlier, I'd split the reward, but I don't feel splitting at a flat rate is fair to the recruiter).

You seem to be downplaying the value of the negotiation work just a bit in my view, and you say as much at the end with the 'we all know...one of those tasks is far easier and more common than the other'. You say you are not writing off the value of negotiators, and competition should mean that there are no huge deltas, but as long as you are truly getting at or above market rate I'm not sure I can see the fault in a recruiter getting a huge delta.

You are correct in that I can't do what coders do, and I can do things that coders can't do also. On a site like HN, frequented by coders, everyone here will agree that what coders do is far more difficult than what recruiters do. There is not point in arguing that, particularly here where most people seem to equate recruiting with the lowest form of humanity. But I can assure you that I help people get jobs and solid comp packages that probably lacked the tools to do it on their own. It's a symbiotic relationship with many of my candidates, at least in my case.

You keep alluding to the fact that if I negotiate a huge delta that it is a function of your naivete - couldn't it be the naivete of the company that is paying that rate? If you pay $200K for a car that can be had for $20K elsewhere, you as the buyer are the 'victim' if there is one (certainly not the car). Of course cars don't care, but hopefully you get my point.

Who is the true victim here if a coder is being fairly compensated based on market rate? The victim, if there is one, is the company that is being overcharged - yet the coder seems to think he/she is the victim when they are being paid a fair wage.

Again, we stress coders need to know market rate, and the ones that are 'victimized' are the ones that don't know market rate. They are victimized by recruiters who gouge. But if the coder is getting market rate, and the recruiter is able to negotiate a higher-than-market hourly rate (with a high delta), you seem to believe that the coder is a victim - it's not the coder, it's the company.

Re: Show HN: Announcing 10x Management

#57
post #12

I have direct personal experience with 10x and I highly recommend them. I found them to help me with a significant employment/management need. 10x focused on finding the best solution and provided ongoing contact and advice through the whole process. I don't get anything by recommending them. I do believe fully in their business and value.

A few people here are asking for details: 10x helped me with a benefits/salary negotiation with one of my large clients.

Michael Solomon at 10x talked with me about various kinds of research into salaries, benefits, alternative compensation, and the like. Michael was open to creative solutions, able to research comparison positions, and always aimed for a good solution.

Overall I was entirely happy with his work, and he has a clear, solid, long-term vision for helping developers.

As I wrote above, I don't get anything for recommended 10x. I just like to see good people get good work.

Re: Show HN: Announcing 10x Management

#58
post #38

I sense a lot of negativity here. Engineers are not good at dealing with customers. They deal with the customers so engineers don't have to. They have people skills. They are good at dealing with people! Can't you guys understand that?

This is absolutely not true at all. This is the same non-sense girls are taught growing up that they are not "good" at engineering. My experience has been, once engineers start interacting with customers they like it and they are good at it. Some aren't but is not the norm.

Easy now. That was a movie line from Office Space.

Re: Show HN: Announcing 10x Management

#59
post #51

1) More important than deal flow, I could see myself working with something like that if it increased my hourly rate, and if it did so substantially. I am 100% positive that most of the jobs/projects I got into I left money on the table because I didn't want to put too much effort in the negotiation process and just wanted to work on interesting things. So it would be great if something like that managed to work as a…

Transparency is critical in all things related to recruiting (and tech talent management if it is to become a 'thing'). Most of the problems that arise are due to a lack of transparency and the recruiter's incentives. You wouldn't pay someone a percentage if it increased your rate by 20%? That seems a bit of a strange concept. Curious as to why not? Not sure what to make on your assumptions of the guys leading this a…

> You wouldn't pay someone a percentage if it increased your rate by 20%? That seems a bit of a strange concept. Curious as to why not?

Because nothing is free. Adding an extra layer to the sales process costs more than 20% of my time. I can't speak for rglullis, but I'd only accept 20% it if I was incapable of finding additional clients.

Re: Show HN: Announcing 10x Management

#60
post #39

I laid out something similar here on HN last summer and Atlay (of 10x) was one of the first to comment. ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4555165 ) As a longtime tech recruiter, what I find most valuable about the model is that it is much more geared towards helping tech pros focus on what they do best (code) and not have to worry about what they tend to do worst (handle the business side of their work, negotiat…

I tweeted this idea back in December 2011: https://twitter.com/capotribu/status/147730720192872449

looking forward to receiving shares as a thank you ;-)

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