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Show HN: Play abstract strategy board games online with friends or against bots

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Re: Show HN: Play abstract strategy board games online with friends or against bots

#51

Post by Paracompact »

BrenBarn wrote: post #32
Paracompact wrote: post #4

As a longtime chess and go player, I was just doing some research the other day into what modern abstracts are out there. I was disappointed by how dry I came up. Even if you expand the search criteria to include video games, there just aren't many deeply strategic discrete-time games that weren't invented centuries ago and have players online at any given time. Here I exclude games that are perpetually changing and/…

I think "have players online at any given time" is the tough part there, but it's also the tough part for many non-abstract games. If you look around on Board Game Arena you can see a number of abstract games available, but with many you'll struggle to find any other players. There are some cool abstract games out there, but they're not super popular. Abalone was mentioned in another comment here. Octi is another coo…

Yeah, Azul stands out as a great exception to my rant. I get similar feelings playing it as I do playing riichi mahjong (a fabulously deep emergent blend of luck, planning, and player psychology). It's also managed a decent popularity not just as a quasi-abstract but as a board game, period.

There is another aspect to the thing I didn't mention but you did: It may be that the sheer amount of interest in board and video games at large is more to blame for the lack of deep abstracts than is the inherent lack of appreciation for them. In sum total, there are probably games out there currently that could be mechanically fit as a successor to chess or go, but with so many competing games out there (both cerebral and otherwise), even the cerebral gamer is unlikely to pursue them singlemindedly.

Re: Show HN: Play abstract strategy board games online with friends or against bots

#52

Post by tasuki »

What do I think? It's amazing! Got crushed by a 300 bot in Hex, then beat a 100 bot, then again lost against 200. It's great how one can see the review immediately afterwards!

Feature requests:

- TwixT - just TwixT PP like on LittleGolem is fine (much easier to implement).

- Quoridor - a delightfully incomprehensible game.

- Larger board sizes. Hex starts being really fun at 19x19!

Questions and suggestions:

- On reddit you mention you "used AlphaZero-style methods to train the bots" - I suppose the networks are size-dependent? You could look into the many KataGo improvements[0].

- You mention the source code isn't released. If you released it, people could help add games.

Again, very well done, thank you!

[0]: https://github.com/lightvector/KataGo#training-history-and-r...

Re: Show HN: Play abstract strategy board games online with friends or against bots

#53

Post by anentropic »

> Hex is a two-player abstract strategy game invented independently by Piet Hein in 1942 and John Nash in 1948.

This sounded very intriguing - what are the chances of two people inventing the same abstract strategy game!? At the least there might be some interesting story about how they arrived at same idea.

Wikipedia phrases it differently though:

> Hex was invented by mathematician and poet Piet Hein in 1942 and later rediscovered and popularized by John Nash.

Ok less amazing

Re: Show HN: Play abstract strategy board games online with friends or against bots

#54

Post by [deleted] »

Paracompact wrote: post #4

As a longtime chess and go player, I was just doing some research the other day into what modern abstracts are out there. I was disappointed by how dry I came up. Even if you expand the search criteria to include video games, there just aren't many deeply strategic discrete-time games that weren't invented centuries ago and have players online at any given time. Here I exclude games that are perpetually changing and/…

[deleted]

Re: Show HN: Play abstract strategy board games online with friends or against bots

#55

Post by bondarchuk »

Paracompact wrote: post #4

As a longtime chess and go player, I was just doing some research the other day into what modern abstracts are out there. I was disappointed by how dry I came up. Even if you expand the search criteria to include video games, there just aren't many deeply strategic discrete-time games that weren't invented centuries ago and have players online at any given time. Here I exclude games that are perpetually changing and/…

It's only correspondence play, but this site has 209 games at the moment and a reasonably active player base https://play.abstractplay.com/games

Most games are quite modern, including some designed this year. And they have Homeworlds!

Re: Show HN: Play abstract strategy board games online with friends or against bots

#56

Post by atakan_gurkan »

vkazanov wrote: post #45
krapp wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you have such an aversion to capes? There's no rule saying you have to play as a character in a cape. If you're asking if there's a version of D&D that's pure math and no roleplay, the closest thing I can imagine would be Dragon Dice, or something with the mechanics of a very basic roguelike. The math in D&D itself such as in combat is affected by your character's stats and the encounters created by the DM, so…

The thing is that dragons and magic and Harry Potter all become irrelevant at some point in life. Power fantasies do have an expiration date. Now, the genre itself, all the storytelling involved, can easily be adapted to more serious, or even abstract, thinking. In fact, it was, and there are plenty of alternative rpg universes. But, similar to how serious non-marvel movies are a niche, serious rpgs are also less pop…

I understand where you are coming from, but I hope you realize this is very subjective. The things you mentioned and other elements of the fantasy genre do not become irrelevant for many people through their life, well into adult life as well. In fact, they may become irrelevant and become relevant again.

Just to make it clear (and perhaps to state the obvious), you are not believing in these when you play these games or read these books, you are voluntarily suspending disbelief.

Re: Show HN: Play abstract strategy board games online with friends or against bots

#57

Post by gwd »

fsckboy wrote: post #25
quuxplusone wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No text, no chance, perfect information. If you have to read things, roll things, or hide things, it's not an abstract. (This fails to include backgammon and Parcheesi when maybe it should, and includes Zark City when somehow I feel it shouldn't, but it's not a bad starting point.) Additionally: No dexterity (which is kind of a special case of "no chance").

is there a game that is an abstract version of D&D? i've always been curious about the gameplay, but have absolutely no interest in reading past words like "wizard", "mage", or "eldritch", and i won't look at anything where i have to see or imagine that somebody is wearing a cape, or even play with gamers who are willing to imagine they are wearing capes in other games.

I mean, the most important part of a role-playing game like D&D is... the role-playing. You're basically telling a shared story, with each player controlling one character, and the DM controlling everyone else. The fighting mechanics are sort of a mini-game inside the larger game.

If that's all you want, there are loads of combat games with miniatures. I've never played Warhammer, but that's obviously the biggest one; I've enjoyed the Star Wars X-wing combat game as well.

Re: Show HN: Play abstract strategy board games online with friends or against bots

#58

Post by almostdeadguy »

tasuki wrote: post #52

What do I think? It's amazing! Got crushed by a 300 bot in Hex, then beat a 100 bot, then again lost against 200. It's great how one can see the review immediately afterwards! Feature requests: - TwixT - just TwixT PP like on LittleGolem is fine (much easier to implement). - Quoridor - a delightfully incomprehensible game. - Larger board sizes. Hex starts being really fun at 19x19! Questions and suggestions: - On red…

I love TwixT, I discovered the Bookshelf Games version of this recently (a friend of mine's parents had an old copy at their beach house). Also a big fan of Alex Randolph's Ricochet Robots.

Dieter Stein's games are also supposed to be wonderful abstracts (Urbino, Fendo, Tintas) though I haven't had a chance to play those yet.

Re: Show HN: Play abstract strategy board games online with friends or against bots

#59

Post by AtlasBarfed »

Paracompact wrote: post #4

As a longtime chess and go player, I was just doing some research the other day into what modern abstracts are out there. I was disappointed by how dry I came up. Even if you expand the search criteria to include video games, there just aren't many deeply strategic discrete-time games that weren't invented centuries ago and have players online at any given time. Here I exclude games that are perpetually changing and/…

Civilization?

Master of Orion?

Here's a wealth of turn-based strategy out there, especially in the retro days.

Re: Show HN: Play abstract strategy board games online with friends or against bots

#60

Post by abstractbg »

anentropic wrote: post #53

> Hex is a two-player abstract strategy game invented independently by Piet Hein in 1942 and John Nash in 1948. This sounded very intriguing - what are the chances of two people inventing the same abstract strategy game!? At the least there might be some interesting story about how they arrived at same idea. Wikipedia phrases it differently though: > Hex was invented by mathematician and poet Piet Hein in 1942 and la…

Sorry, thanks for pointing that out! Yes Nash rediscovered it. Will update once things calm down
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