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Show HN: Create diagrams of complex data flows in software systems

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Re: Show HN: Create diagrams of complex data flows in software systems

#51

I love it, but I can't help but wonder why I almost never see complete or up to date diagrams in an enterprise or at scale software engineering setting, despite there being so many tools in this space (mermaid, uml, draw.io, graphviz, etc). I wonder what the barrier is or how to make tools like this fundamentally different so that we would see more adoption. This comes up frequently in the context of secure design re…

My take is that it's a bit worse than that: the whole doc tooling scene is a dumpster fire. I want to maintain technical documentation under revision control (same revision control system as I use for source code), and I want to be able to embed diagrams in said documents (also under revision control) and I want to wysiwyg edit those things. Amazingly in 2024 this does not exist.

> I want to maintain technical documentation under revision control

This kind of effort is sabotaged at every place I've ever worked, usually because product or leadership insists that it moves to confluence, and then predictably this increases friction and no one ever updates those diagrams again. People with "20 years experience in industry" can't be bothered login to github, and in the best case instead of confluence they want lucidchart, where inevitably the whole org is sharing like 3 seats.

Partly this is just laziness or ignorance, but partly it's deliberate overreach into engineering business because there's lots of people who see actual information as a threat to to their preferred narratives (think hype/sales promises/etc). Plus you can't say that you didn't know about a design flaw if there is 6 month old diagram calling out the need for a solution in big red letters. Since a picture is worth a 1000 words, and since a git hash can get a date attached to it, dead-on-arrival docs/diagrams tends to decrease accountability.

Re: Show HN: Create diagrams of complex data flows in software systems

#52
post #34

I love it, but I can't help but wonder why I almost never see complete or up to date diagrams in an enterprise or at scale software engineering setting, despite there being so many tools in this space (mermaid, uml, draw.io, graphviz, etc). I wonder what the barrier is or how to make tools like this fundamentally different so that we would see more adoption. This comes up frequently in the context of secure design re…

Honestly, I think you are using free (and old) diagramming tools, and you are getting why you pay for. There are plenty of tools designed specifically for documenting large systems, but they cost money.

Which ones are those? Who is using them? I don't limit this discussion to free tools, the list I gave happens to include some well known free things.

Re: Show HN: Create diagrams of complex data flows in software systems

#53

I love it, but I can't help but wonder why I almost never see complete or up to date diagrams in an enterprise or at scale software engineering setting, despite there being so many tools in this space (mermaid, uml, draw.io, graphviz, etc). I wonder what the barrier is or how to make tools like this fundamentally different so that we would see more adoption. This comes up frequently in the context of secure design re…

My take is that it's a bit worse than that: the whole doc tooling scene is a dumpster fire. I want to maintain technical documentation under revision control (same revision control system as I use for source code), and I want to be able to embed diagrams in said documents (also under revision control) and I want to wysiwyg edit those things. Amazingly in 2024 this does not exist.

I think this captures the sentiment I have been seeing and feeling myself. Docs and diagrams die because they aren't code. When the code changes, the docs are left behind.

What is interesting here is that mermaid and graphviz could be committed to source control, but I have never seen it done anywhere likely because the burden of drawing/updating is still too high (hence your wysiwyg comment).

Re: Show HN: Create diagrams of complex data flows in software systems

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My take is that it's a bit worse than that: the whole doc tooling scene is a dumpster fire. I want to maintain technical documentation under revision control (same revision control system as I use for source code), and I want to be able to embed diagrams in said documents (also under revision control) and I want to wysiwyg edit those things. Amazingly in 2024 this does not exist.

Org files with embedded PlantUML blocks get close to what you want.

Who is using this? I have only seen plantuml written about on blogs, never actually in use.

Re: Show HN: Create diagrams of complex data flows in software systems

#55

https://gg-charts.com/#=&file=eJyVksFSgzAQhu88xQ4X9FBa2jodkT...

For those reading this, do not click on that link above. It executes a script that renders the app unusable until you clear your local storage.

Thanks for the report, I'll fix that.

Re: Show HN: Create diagrams of complex data flows in software systems

#56
post #19

I love it, but I can't help but wonder why I almost never see complete or up to date diagrams in an enterprise or at scale software engineering setting, despite there being so many tools in this space (mermaid, uml, draw.io, graphviz, etc). I wonder what the barrier is or how to make tools like this fundamentally different so that we would see more adoption. This comes up frequently in the context of secure design re…

If you want to understand the underlying problem, think about geographical mapping (e.g. Google Maps). When drawing a map, how do you decide what gets featured? Roads, businesses? How big can the text be? How do you keep it all readable? Diagramming is the same problem, but usually lacking the context to decide what to draw. The same stakeholders may be interested in different combinations of features depending on wh…

I understand the argument but think this is a straw man based on my experience. The issue isn't so much that people can't decide on the level of detail, it's that the diagram is drawn only once or in most cases never.

A dataflow diagram for example is mostly self constraining in scope.

Automating it is another problem entirely and I agree it has a lot of hard challenges.

Re: Show HN: Create diagrams of complex data flows in software systems

#57

When going to https://gg-charts.com all I got is a popup of 1 and displayed Hacked by NSF instead.

Try cleaning your browser local storage for https://gg-charts.com.

There is currently a bug in the app that let someone inject a JS snippet to execute (to confirm) in the URL "file" property. The app then save the content of that "file" property in the local storage, so every time you open https://gg-charts.com, it loads this data from local storage and re-execute the JS snippet.

I'll fix that today, sorry for the inconvenience. :-/ The web is the far west!

Re: Show HN: Create diagrams of complex data flows in software systems

#58
post #11

Wow, this looks very interesting. I saw the diagram of your own application and it looks more dynamic than the ones that I am generally used to at work. I am curious about the motivation behind this project. What experiences triggered you to think that static diagrams are a problem? Your answer will help me decide whether I'd like to use it for my own documentation or not.

Thank you for your comment!

I decided to work on gg because I want my colleagues to grok our complex software architecture, and I don't feel like I am able to achieve that with textual documentation + static diagrams alone.

I have been in a lot of brainstorming sessions drawing boxes and arrows on a whiteboard. I have produced a lot of diagrams with mermaid, draw.io, miro, etc. I produced a lot of documentation to explain how the software is built. Those are all good tools to get everyone on the same page, and yet, I feel like there is a missing piece of the puzzle to explain a software architecture simply and concisely that even the new junior developer recruit will understand.

Re: Show HN: Create diagrams of complex data flows in software systems

#59
post #28

I love it, but I can't help but wonder why I almost never see complete or up to date diagrams in an enterprise or at scale software engineering setting, despite there being so many tools in this space (mermaid, uml, draw.io, graphviz, etc). I wonder what the barrier is or how to make tools like this fundamentally different so that we would see more adoption. This comes up frequently in the context of secure design re…

In my dreams, you have docs and source code in the same repo, and update both in a single pull request. In reality, confluence...

Merely as a "for your consideration," if you already have a build pipeline, rendering the in-repo docs and pushing them into Confluence could be a middle ground between "corporate overlords" and the workflow that works best for you and your team

Re: Show HN: Create diagrams of complex data flows in software systems

#60
post #28

I love it, but I can't help but wonder why I almost never see complete or up to date diagrams in an enterprise or at scale software engineering setting, despite there being so many tools in this space (mermaid, uml, draw.io, graphviz, etc). I wonder what the barrier is or how to make tools like this fundamentally different so that we would see more adoption. This comes up frequently in the context of secure design re…

In my dreams, you have docs and source code in the same repo, and update both in a single pull request. In reality, confluence...

I've lived this life first-hand, and it is refreshing after experiencing the vast open sea of half-assed Confluence sprawl, huge PDF design documents that aren't kept up to date with changing requirements, etc.

The other sibling comment regarding rendering documentation source to Confluence or to keep the corp overlords happy is a great middle ground IMO.

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