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Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

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Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#51

Post by xigma »

artursapek wrote: post #46
xigma wrote: post #2

It's unbelievably slow. I'm confident it's not the developer's fault. It serves as a good warning. It just goes to show that Web technology still has a long way to go. SVG (and to a lesser extent Canvas) are trainwrecks in terms of performance. It's really a sad story that HTML5 has been evangelized so strongly, yet even ten years later it can't hold a candle to Flash in many regards.

How is canvas a "trainwreck" in performance? I've used it extensively and have found it a very well performing framework. https://cryptowat.ch/markets/kraken/btc/eur https://ballpoint.io/files/examples/starbucks

The difference in performance with Flash is huge, modifying the context is quite expensive, resetting it is expensive, which is problematic because it is stateful.

You have to compare it to non-Web technology to get an idea of how bad it really is. Compared to SVG/HTML, it's of course massively faster.

Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#52

Post by xigma »

viraptor wrote: post #41
xigma wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another opinion from someone who presumably looks at "browser support" tables and green checkmarks and forms an opinion that way. How much actual WebGL vs. SVG development have you done? How many devices have you tested?

This applies to a few of your comments, but: you're not telling us anything interesting, you're just antagonistic. GP's experience is not really relevant here. If you think you have more experience, tell us about your opinions and how your justify them. Knee-jerk disagreeing and suspecting everyone to have less experience than you will just get you downvoted everywhere.

> you're not telling us anything interesting

First of all, that's a pretty condescending thing to say and you're obviously not speaking for everyone. I wouldn't mention that if you weren't tone-policing me.

I'm telling you that if you make technical decisions based on "feature support" charts, you're going to fall flat on your face with WebGL. That's pretty useful information unless you never have to do any actual work with that technology, but then your opinion is also irrelevant.

> Knee-jerk disagreeing and suspecting everyone to have less experience than you will just get you downvoted everywhere.

Nobody who has experience with WebGL and SVG will say WebGL is better supported across the board. You'll have to take that at face value, there's no scientific study for it and I'm not going to just give out more information than I'm comfortable with.

I'm getting downvoted across the board here, presumably for using "bad" words like "terrible" to describe everyone's favorite Web technology they never really used. Or if they have used it, they don't know how poorly it compares to something "evil" like Flash. People want "the good guys" to win, which means "free and open source" and "standard". It makes them upset when somebody criticizes that harshly, but it's the reality.

I got some upvotes initially, by the way. Not that I care either way, I'm not paid in upvotes.

Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#53

Post by blotter_paper »

j45 wrote: post #48
kowdermeister wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree with any of your points, these do provide the necessary insight of the two platforms. I was around when flash became a big thing, though never really developed in it deeply. IE3-4 was probably nightmare to work with :) > The dangerous thing about saying html has successfully replaced the past is, we're doomed to repeat the past if we don't understand it due to hubris. I feel we will repeat some of th…

Webassembly is the first tech I can think of that all browsers have unanimously agreed on and co-created. The same can't be said for the design, interpretation or implementation of the html spec. Open standards can also fall to paralysis of design by committee. Still, open is good (AV1 is also cause for optimism). When open standards aren't possible or happening, innovation is undertaken by private companies.

>Webassembly is the first tech I can think of that all browsers have unanimously agreed on and co-created.

I like wasm, but this unabashed overstatement completely ignores smaller browsers. Best of luck getting elinks to commit to wasm support.

Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#55

Post by xigma »

scriptproof wrote: post #37
xigma wrote: post #2

It's unbelievably slow. I'm confident it's not the developer's fault. It serves as a good warning. It just goes to show that Web technology still has a long way to go. SVG (and to a lesser extent Canvas) are trainwrecks in terms of performance. It's really a sad story that HTML5 has been evangelized so strongly, yet even ten years later it can't hold a candle to Flash in many regards.

> It's really a sad story that HTML5 has been evangelized so strongly SVG is not a part of HTML 5, it is older, while Canvas actually is, and Canvas is as fast as the now defunct Flash. Maybe applying the right technology to a problem would solve the speed issue...

> SVG is not a part of HTML 5, it is older

Maybe not formally, but making that distinction makes no difference to my point.

> Canvas is as fast as the now defunct Flash

...not even close.

Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#56

Post by xigma »

microcolonel wrote: post #50
xigma wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dude, this is the kind of stuff I could run in realtime on an Amiga. Maybe not at the same resolution, but the resolution isn't the bottleneck in this demo either, I'm struggling to hit 40Hz at any scale.

On the Amiga, you didn't go the stupid way around and represent your object as a series of text path strings which need to be parsed into objects and then finally displayed for each frame. You can get your Amiga performance with canvas; and you can get way better with WebGL. This is just a case of wrong-tool-for-wrong-job.

Do you realize that in Canvas colors are represented as a "series of text strings" that need to be parsed?

Did you know that drawing paths requires a ton of pretty expensive Javascript calls or alternatively passing "a series of text strings"? Maybe the string way is actually faster, I haven't tested it because it isn't supported everywhere.

Were you aware that vector rendering is not usually done on GPUs, mainly because of the high overhead of state changes when using a graphics API, especially one like WebGL?

I guess you could do all your rendering in software in Javascript (which for these purposes is nowhere close to what you can get with C/C++) to a byte buffer and then do the final transfer to Canvas. Even in that case, you might be surprised how much overhead that final transfer has...

Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#57

Post by dang »

xigma wrote: post #25
lucideer wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> WebGL doesn't have very good support, especially on mobile. That's why one would choose to use SVG. This statement isn't even vaguely true. SVG support is quite incomplete and inconsistent across all browsers (both desktop and mobile), while Webgl has been comparatively well supported on mobile for many years (Android 4.4 lacked support; Android 9 is now out). The only issues you might have with most common webgl a…

Another opinion from someone who presumably looks at "browser support" tables and green checkmarks and forms an opinion that way. How much actual WebGL vs. SVG development have you done? How many devices have you tested?

You've repeatedly violated the site guidelines in this thread. That will get you banned on HN—especially the way you've been abusing others. Could you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and follow the rules from now on? The idea here is: if you have a substantive point to make, make it thoughtfully; if you don't, please don't comment until you do.

You obviously have experience in this area that is great to share in a way people can learn from. But first it's necessary to be civil, as all users need to be here.

Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#58

Post by dang »

kowdermeister wrote: post #30
xigma wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course I have no idea, I'm only following the development of web technologies since IE6. You followed other people doing the development at great expense. You're in no position to evangelize anything. > Just pick a graphics library and you'll be fine if you want to move vector stuff around. If you miss the flash IDE, then it still exists and can export to HTML5 standards. Hahahaha, yeah please use it . Please, I…

I should have said developed as well (I thought that implies it), but your head is too deeply buried in the sand to maintain a conversation. I did use many graphics libraries before, thanks, they are fine.

Please don't reply to a comment that broke the HN guidelines by breaking them yourself. That only makes this place worse.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#59

Post by the8472 »

xigma wrote: post #56
microcolonel wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the Amiga, you didn't go the stupid way around and represent your object as a series of text path strings which need to be parsed into objects and then finally displayed for each frame. You can get your Amiga performance with canvas; and you can get way better with WebGL. This is just a case of wrong-tool-for-wrong-job.

Do you realize that in Canvas colors are represented as a "series of text strings" that need to be parsed? Did you know that drawing paths requires a ton of pretty expensive Javascript calls or alternatively passing "a series of text strings"? Maybe the string way is actually faster, I haven't tested it because it isn't supported everywhere. Were you aware that vector rendering is not usually done on GPUs, mainly bec…

2D Canvas can be populated with byte buffers

Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#60

Post by BrendanEich »

goatlover wrote: post #15
kowdermeister wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's slow because it's abusing what SVG can deliver. It's only a good warning in regards to avoid using the wrong tool for the job. If you want want 3D in the browser, then go WebGL. > It's really a sad story that HTML5 has been evangelized so strongly, yet even ten years later it can't hold a candle to Flash in many regards. Not sad at all. It needs to be evangelized more since it's clear that other solutions did no…

Java was open source and Sun wanted Netscape to embed Java in their browser. According to Brendan Eich, Netscape considered having both JS and Java along with a canvas element both could draw on, but time constraints dictated otherwise. So Java ended up being used as a plugin.

From https://devchat.tv/js-jabber/124-jsj-the-origin-of-javascrip...

Transcript: https://devchat.cachefly.net/javascriptjabber/transcript-124...

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