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Show HN: Get e-signatures & pay per signed doc

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Re: Show HN: Get e-signatures & pay per signed doc

#41

Post by lolinder »

> This event expanded the market with such massive awareness.

I think you might be overestimating the impact of this (whatever 'this' is) on the rest of the world that isn't trying to make signatures a business. This is the first I'm hearing that Google has introduced a (new?) signature feature, and the Google trends for "Electronic signature" haven't moved much if at all [0]. A Google search for "Google signatures" still mostly turns up information about email signatures, including when I filter to the News tab.

I'm honestly not even 100% sure what new feature you're talking about. In my searching I don't turn up any announcements about Google and signatures, and I do find a help article about it going back to 2022 [1].

In short, I have no idea what sparked this for you, but for the rest of us it's Tuesday. It might be good to slow down and figure out what's actually going on and what its real impact is?

[0] https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%203-m&ge...

[1] https://support.google.com/docs/answer/12315692?hl=en

Re: Show HN: Get e-signatures & pay per signed doc

#42

Post by nosioptar »

I think the contact page might be broken on Firefox/android. I just get a fairly sizable whitespace with a twitter link if I scroll far enough. (I'm assuming there's supposed to be a contact form and/or email address. I'm old, I can't imagine using twitter for business communications.)

Re: Show HN: Get e-signatures & pay per signed doc

#43

Post by jackvalentine »

gamblor956 wrote: post #20
Muromec wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is in fact disputing their signatures in court.

That in fact happens all time time with signatures... A signature can be used to validate the existence and legitimacy of a contract and the terms contained within a specific version of a contract, so disputes over signatures happen quite frequently. Indeed, DocuSign spent years establishing that their system could be used to authenticate signatures and the documents they were attached to so they could break into the…

Might well be the case but the only disputes I’ve ever been involved in were one of two categories:

- yeah the agreement says that but sue us we’re not doing it

- we interpreted that clause to mean something different, pay us more or sue us.

Never anyone disagreeing about which version of the contract was the legit one.

I’m not sure what level of business that both happens, and is serious enough to litigate - I’m not able to picture it.

Re: Show HN: Get e-signatures & pay per signed doc

#44

Post by popcalc »

gamblor956 wrote: post #25
semi-extrinsic wrote: post #6

Kind of tangential, but I'll share a bit of a horror story from a friend when it comes to e-signatures. The company in question uses DocuSign, and most of their clients do as well. They are big, serious companies. However, nobody is able to set up DocuSign in a reasonable way for a multi-client contract. Every company needs to use their own DocuSign. Now, DocuSign embeds a cryptographic signature in the signed PDF. T…

??? We use Docusign (and occasionally Adobe Sign) for multi-client/multi-organization contracts all the time at my job. Docusign essentially acts as an escrow service for signatures. You need to make sure that all of the signers' are set up when you first send out the document for signatures. It doesn't matter whether they're part of a separate Docusign account or not; that just affects how they access the document a…

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42484410

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21591466

Want to comment?

Re: Show HN: Get e-signatures & pay per signed doc

#45

Post by semi-extrinsic »

gamblor956 wrote: post #20
Muromec wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is in fact disputing their signatures in court.

That in fact happens all time time with signatures... A signature can be used to validate the existence and legitimacy of a contract and the terms contained within a specific version of a contract, so disputes over signatures happen quite frequently. Indeed, DocuSign spent years establishing that their system could be used to authenticate signatures and the documents they were attached to so they could break into the…

I tried reading how to use DocuSign with eIDAS for a Qualified signature, which is the legal requirement in the EU. And it is such a mess that the DocuSign documentation [1] links to a page at passkeys.dev [2] which explicitly states in the first paragraph that it should not be linked to from user-facing documentation...

[1] https://support.docusign.com/s/document-item?language=en_US&...

[2] https://passkeys.dev/device-support/

Re: Show HN: Get e-signatures & pay per signed doc

#46

Post by Muromec »

semi-extrinsic wrote: post #45
gamblor956 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That in fact happens all time time with signatures... A signature can be used to validate the existence and legitimacy of a contract and the terms contained within a specific version of a contract, so disputes over signatures happen quite frequently. Indeed, DocuSign spent years establishing that their system could be used to authenticate signatures and the documents they were attached to so they could break into the…

I tried reading how to use DocuSign with eIDAS for a Qualified signature, which is the legal requirement in the EU. And it is such a mess that the DocuSign documentation [1] links to a page at passkeys.dev [2] which explicitly states in the first paragraph that it should not be linked to from user-facing documentation... [1] https://support.docusign.com/s/document-item?language=en_US&... [2] https://passkeys.dev/devi…

Where does the requirement come from? eIDAS regulation [0] establishes different signature profiles, from which qualified is the strongest, but doesn't say you can't use advanced or the basic electronic "draw here" kind of signature with no cryptography.

Sure, some national laws may require qualified with long term storage and implement it as part of closed document system, but people use less-than-qualified documents all the time.

[0] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:...

Re: Show HN: Get e-signatures & pay per signed doc

#48

Post by NerdSniper9001 »

semi-extrinsic wrote: post #6

Kind of tangential, but I'll share a bit of a horror story from a friend when it comes to e-signatures. The company in question uses DocuSign, and most of their clients do as well. They are big, serious companies. However, nobody is able to set up DocuSign in a reasonable way for a multi-client contract. Every company needs to use their own DocuSign. Now, DocuSign embeds a cryptographic signature in the signed PDF. T…

Lol your workflow is fucked, mate. You need to unfuck it. Docusign is a fine tool. You just don't know how to use it.

Re: Show HN: Get e-signatures & pay per signed doc

#49

Post by gamblor956 »

popcalc wrote: post #44
gamblor956 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

??? We use Docusign (and occasionally Adobe Sign) for multi-client/multi-organization contracts all the time at my job. Docusign essentially acts as an escrow service for signatures. You need to make sure that all of the signers' are set up when you first send out the document for signatures. It doesn't matter whether they're part of a separate Docusign account or not; that just affects how they access the document a…

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42484410 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21591466 Want to comment?

My comments were from 2019. Paypal acquired Honey in 2020, and MegaLag's "expose" is for their alleged post-acquisition business practices.

I make no claims that their business model remained the same after the acquisition. But on that note: Paypal's acquisition of Honey was vetted by multiple law firms and by regulators in the U.S. and Europe, and even scrutinized by shortsellers. Nobody found anything wrong with Honey's business model or any serious legal risks with what they were doing. Another public company, Rakuten, has since launched a competitor to Honey with the same business model (and some of the same personnel).

Seriously. If Honey was doing something wrong, at the very least the shortsellers would be all over this because they'd be making a killing. This morning, Paypal's stock barely budged (and has actually gone up after-hours now that the market has had time to review MegaLag's "expose"). That should speak volumes to anyone with common sense.

Re: Show HN: Get e-signatures & pay per signed doc

#50

Post by gamblor956 »

Muromec wrote: post #36
gamblor956 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That in fact happens all time time with signatures... A signature can be used to validate the existence and legitimacy of a contract and the terms contained within a specific version of a contract, so disputes over signatures happen quite frequently. Indeed, DocuSign spent years establishing that their system could be used to authenticate signatures and the documents they were attached to so they could break into the…

That's just the nice story DocuSign have to tell to deal with other people having their interests. It's not an actual fact of life.

It's not just a nice story. Law students learn about the importance of signatures on contracts during their first few weeks of law school.

Try getting a contract honored without a signature. You'll get laughed out of court. And unless they're you're best bud, you'll get laughed at by your counterparty for your naivete. Good luck proving the existence of an agreement with a piece of paper that the other party disputes.

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