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Show HN: TrackingTheTrackers – Is a website disguising its 3rd-party trackers?

trackingthetrackers.com

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Re: Show HN: TrackingTheTrackers – Is a website disguising its 3rd-party trackers?

#41

Post by 3xblah »

bscphil wrote: post #39
3xblah wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"... the exact same thing an ad blocking DNS provider is doing." Just to be clear, I was not advocating using third party DNS. Using djbdns I can just "block" all non-www subdomains for a domain with a single line in a zone file (if using tinydns) or a single byte file in a directory (if using dnscache) and then add entries in the zone file for any specific subdomains I want to "allow". It is only an opinion, but I t…

> Just to be clear, I was not advocating using third party DNS. Well, you weren't, but the OP is a Show HN by a company offering such a service. > It is only an opinion, but I think the ability to wildcard all subdomains makes DNS-based methods of blocking trackers easier to manage I dunno, I think for most people uBlock rules are going to be easier to handle then setting up their own DNS server. Sure, I have my own…

With uBlock, is it possible to block all subdomains but allow a specific subdomain?

A resolver (e.g., unbound) is only one half of the DNS method I use. The other is an authoritative nameserver (e.g., nsd). For my own purposes, the resolver is optional.

Re: Show HN: TrackingTheTrackers – Is a website disguising its 3rd-party trackers?

#42

Post by munchbunny »

x0x0 wrote: post #35
munchbunny wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on why you care about the distinction. If you're talking from a purely privacy perspective, the important questions are (1) are you taking analytics? (2) what are you doing with them? (3) is that in line with users' expectations? Third party, or third party disguised as first party, is only problematic because of an implied "there's very little keeping the third party from using your data for things that a…

> violate the general assumption that first party data stays first party How? Because they can't do that with cookies. I think the most prominent objection to 3rd party cookies is they allow systematic tracking. This seems like they just help eg apple or whomever understand what you're doing on that same site.

> How? Because they can't do that with cookies.

My point is exactly that: they can and are doing it (using first party cookies through CNAME redirects to correlate your identity across multiple independent sites in order to sell a data product to more than just the first party). For an example, see Criteo.

> I think the most prominent objection to 3rd party cookies is they allow systematic tracking.

And now first party cookies are starting to be used for that too. It's not that important how you specifically want to phrase the general ickiness of third party cookies.

Re: Show HN: TrackingTheTrackers – Is a website disguising its 3rd-party trackers?

#43

Post by munchbunny »

x0x0 wrote: post #40
zonidjan wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of other ways to fingerprint a user. https://amiunique.org/

That really doesn't answer the question. Munchberry claims these analytics tools have cross domain tracking and I'm asking how, precisely. In part because of professional interest, and in part because I don't actually think it's true.

Thanks for getting my username right. ;)

You specifically got one detail wrong: it's not just for analytics tools. It's the adtech industry in general using this technique, and Adobe offers its analytics as part of its marketing software suite.

From their own site: "What is Adobe Experience Cloud? It's a collection of best-in-class solutions for marketing, analytics, advertising, and commerce."

Re: Show HN: TrackingTheTrackers – Is a website disguising its 3rd-party trackers?

#44

Post by x0x0 »

munchbunny wrote: post #43
x0x0 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That really doesn't answer the question. Munchberry claims these analytics tools have cross domain tracking and I'm asking how, precisely. In part because of professional interest, and in part because I don't actually think it's true.

Thanks for getting my username right. ;) You specifically got one detail wrong: it's not just for analytics tools. It's the adtech industry in general using this technique, and Adobe offers its analytics as part of its marketing software suite. From their own site: " What is Adobe Experience Cloud? It's a collection of best-in-class solutions for marketing, analytics, advertising, and commerce. "

Apologies Munch bunny, gonna blame that on a need for new glasses.

fwiw, Adobe Experience Cloud is generally not the sort of adtech that attempts to sell information.

Re: Show HN: TrackingTheTrackers – Is a website disguising its 3rd-party trackers?

#45

Post by bscphil »

3xblah wrote: post #41
bscphil wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just to be clear, I was not advocating using third party DNS. Well, you weren't, but the OP is a Show HN by a company offering such a service. > It is only an opinion, but I think the ability to wildcard all subdomains makes DNS-based methods of blocking trackers easier to manage I dunno, I think for most people uBlock rules are going to be easier to handle then setting up their own DNS server. Sure, I have my own…

With uBlock, is it possible to block all subdomains but allow a specific subdomain? A resolver (e.g., unbound) is only one half of the DNS method I use. The other is an authoritative nameserver (e.g., nsd). For my own purposes, the resolver is optional.

Yes, that's just this:

  ||example.org^
  @@www.example.org^
> The other is an authoritative nameserver (e.g., nsd). For my own purposes, the resolver is optional.

True, although I imagine for most people the nameserver part of it is the more optional. DNS ad blocking software tends to be a recursive resolver that returns 0.0.0.0 results for some unwanted domains. Unbound has the ability to do that (for the few domains I'm filtering entirely), and so I've stuck with that.

Re: Show HN: TrackingTheTrackers – Is a website disguising its 3rd-party trackers?

#46

Post by 3xblah »

bscphil wrote: post #45
3xblah wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With uBlock, is it possible to block all subdomains but allow a specific subdomain? A resolver (e.g., unbound) is only one half of the DNS method I use. The other is an authoritative nameserver (e.g., nsd). For my own purposes, the resolver is optional.

Yes, that's just this: ||example.org^ @@www.example.org^ > The other is an authoritative nameserver (e.g., nsd). For my own purposes, the resolver is optional. True, although I imagine for most people the nameserver part of it is the more optional. DNS ad blocking software tends to be a recursive resolver that returns 0.0.0.0 results for some unwanted domains. Unbound has the ability to do that (for the few domains I…

It is no wonder that uBlock is so popular.

Not sure I understand returning 0.0.0.0. What if the user has some other servers listening.

I return the address of some server I control that is bound to a local address, e.g., an authoritative nameserver.

Compared to the available solutions this is way too much work for "most people", however from a purist perspective a self-managed DNS approach is not under the ultimate control of a browser-authoring, extension/app-approving company/organisation or some third party DNS provider.

Whether that even matters is debatable.

As long as these easy solutions keep working, there's no incentive to try a different approach.

Re: Show HN: TrackingTheTrackers – Is a website disguising its 3rd-party trackers?

#47

Post by munchbunny »

x0x0 wrote: post #44
munchbunny wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for getting my username right. ;) You specifically got one detail wrong: it's not just for analytics tools. It's the adtech industry in general using this technique, and Adobe offers its analytics as part of its marketing software suite. From their own site: " What is Adobe Experience Cloud? It's a collection of best-in-class solutions for marketing, analytics, advertising, and commerce. "

Apologies Munch bunny , gonna blame that on a need for new glasses. fwiw, Adobe Experience Cloud is generally not the sort of adtech that attempts to sell information.

You're right, Adobe Experience Cloud doesn't sell information, so how problematic you find the product depends on where you draw the line on privacy.

Specifically, Adobe Experience Cloud definitely offers retargeting capabilities (ads following you around the internet) and the ability to get statistics on the effectiveness of that advertising. If they're at parity with competing marketing suites, then they also have attribution capabilities to track you with per-user, per-interaction granularity.

A site that serves Adobe Experience Cloud cookies in the third-party-disguised-as-first-party way is likely enabling this capability for all marketers that are going through Adobe Experience Cloud. So the interesting question would be whether you, a visitor to Fox.com, consider being watched by marketers who aren't Fox.com to be a privacy problem.

Re: Show HN: TrackingTheTrackers – Is a website disguising its 3rd-party trackers?

#48

Post by x0x0 »

munchbunny wrote: post #47
x0x0 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apologies Munch bunny , gonna blame that on a need for new glasses. fwiw, Adobe Experience Cloud is generally not the sort of adtech that attempts to sell information.

You're right, Adobe Experience Cloud doesn't sell information, so how problematic you find the product depends on where you draw the line on privacy. Specifically, Adobe Experience Cloud definitely offers retargeting capabilities (ads following you around the internet) and the ability to get statistics on the effectiveness of that advertising. If they're at parity with competing marketing suites, then they also have…

All of the above is more private than eg google analytics because of the lack of cross domain tracking... I'd consider it a big improvement vis-a-vis google's product suite.
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