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Show HN: Crowdsourced freelance contract template, written in plain language

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Re: Show HN: Crowdsourced freelance contract template, written in plain language

#41

Post by mthomasb »

hiccuphippo wrote: post #28
ruairidhwm wrote: post #26

I've seen quite a few of these and whilst I love the idea, they usually have a ton of problems in them. As tptacek pointed out - there is no chance that this document would survive first contact with a sophisticated party and any qualified lawyer would likely rip this to shreds. Firstly there is no regard to the potential jurisdiction that the user chooses. If I were to put in England then that would mean there are d…

I wonder if there could be a library of legal terms so I can build my contract with it like I can build an image using a canvas library. initial_boilerplate() add_jurisdiction("England") add_involved_parties(foo, bar) etc

We (Bonsai, YC W16) built something like this specifically for freelancers. You enter the parameters of your project and we'll generate a contract using a variety of pre-set clauses. https://www.hellobonsai.com/freelance-contracts

Re: Show HN: Crowdsourced freelance contract template, written in plain language

#42

Post by mikeryan »

ownagefool wrote: post #24
tptacek wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks more like a standard contracting contract. I don't see why the "stop work" thing is required. I also don't know why a contractor would give up no-competing-clients; in fact, we'd be a hard "no" on that even if the client proposed it to us. I think clients will generally push back on an unlimited right to subcontract, too. Just to be clear: not a lawyer! Just a consultant who deals with a lot of contracts in his…

Not that it applies to you, but the right to subcontract in the UK is one of the primary checks for wether a contract is considered disgused employment. The checks are Substitution, Direction and Control, and strong clauses in these will protect both the client and the contractor from a nasty tax bill.

In the US its way more fuzzy and generally in a way that's not usually covered in a contracting agreement.

Re: Show HN: Crowdsourced freelance contract template, written in plain language

#43

Post by chiefalchemist »

Presuming this isn't going to be used for anything five figures and up, then I'd say the more important document for a freelance gig is the Scope of Work. The crux of the SOW is expectations. The contract - for (smaller) freelance work - imho doesn't come into play unless the expectation set (or not) by the SOW goes sideways.

While the contract defines the legal CYAs, etc, the SOW help define the relationship without all the heavy-handed language gymnastics.

Re: Show HN: Crowdsourced freelance contract template, written in plain language

#44

Post by mikeryan »

chiefalchemist wrote: post #43

Presuming this isn't going to be used for anything five figures and up, then I'd say the more important document for a freelance gig is the Scope of Work. The crux of the SOW is expectations. The contract - for (smaller) freelance work - imho doesn't come into play unless the expectation set (or not) by the SOW goes sideways. While the contract defines the legal CYAs, etc, the SOW help define the relationship without…

This contract is a combo MSA/SOW. It covers both.

Re: Show HN: Crowdsourced freelance contract template, written in plain language

#45

Post by notahacker »

rv-de wrote: post #23
YayamiOmate wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kind of naïve analogy would be to see how "easy" it was to establish free software licensing and how much versions exist.

If the number of FSLs is ballparking the to be expected number of variations for a freelance contract then I don't think that framework will be an issue at all. https://opensource.org/licenses/alphabetical Not that many licenses really.

They don't involve payments, modifications, or deadlines, expressly disavow rather than assign IP claims, and don't have any local employment or contract law implications so the number of variations certainly isn't in the same ballpark

The fact the number of variations on the simplest possible EULA still approaches 100 does rather underline why lawyers are still used for more complicated things though.

Re: Show HN: Crowdsourced freelance contract template, written in plain language

#46

Post by lgleason »

ticmasta wrote: post #39
lgleason wrote: post #31

This is definitely missing a lot of protections for both sides. An interesting story. I have a standard contract I usually use with startups etc. that is written to be fair to both parties and vetted by multiple attorneys. One that I worked with insisted that I use theirs. When I went through it, it was clear that they took it from a template and there were numerous holes in it that I pushed back on. They stated that…

>> Contract negotiations are often a sign of things to come with the rest of the engagement I'd qualify this with "if the person(s) you will be work with are the sticklers for the contract." Often contracting is just a line item for the manager that wants to get going and the legal rep is the one causing the delays. When this is the case I don't find the experience with the legal team has much bearing on the experien…

That is true. This has been more of my experience when I've been working with startups and small companies that don't have legal departments.

Re: Show HN: Crowdsourced freelance contract template, written in plain language

#47

Post by avinium »

ruairidhwm wrote: post #29
hiccuphippo wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if there could be a library of legal terms so I can build my contract with it like I can build an image using a canvas library. initial_boilerplate() add_jurisdiction("England") add_involved_parties(foo, bar) etc

I've been wanting to build a legal IDE for ages, it makes no sense that lawyers are stuck using Microsoft Word with lots of bolt-on plugins rather than a VSCode / Sublime equivalent.

Said tools exist, though they're not particularly successful. Word is just too easy to use - even if the replacement is 5% better (which is unlikely), that's not enough to prompt a shift.

Re: Show HN: Crowdsourced freelance contract template, written in plain language

#48

Post by dctoedt »

lgleason wrote: post #31

This is definitely missing a lot of protections for both sides. An interesting story. I have a standard contract I usually use with startups etc. that is written to be fair to both parties and vetted by multiple attorneys. One that I worked with insisted that I use theirs. When I went through it, it was clear that they took it from a template and there were numerous holes in it that I pushed back on. They stated that…

At my former (software) company (I was the GC), on a couple of occasions we were the customer and were presented with problematic license agreements by vendors. Instead of trying to do a lot of revision of the vendors' contracts, I proposed that we just use our standard license agreement, but with us as the customer instead of as the vendor. Each time, the other vendor looked at our agreement and quickly agreed.

Re: Show HN: Crowdsourced freelance contract template, written in plain language

#49

Post by someguy101010 »

cooperadymas wrote: post #32
rv-de wrote: post #20

What I don't get. And I suppose I am speaking here for 99% of all developers without a background in law. How can it be so difficult to create a contract framework? How can there possibly so many variations on that theme that you need a lawyer to do that? I do understand that there are circumstances where legal advice is necessary. But at least 90% of all freelance (and other) contracts should be coverable with a man…

IANAL either, but if you go to a lawyer (as a freelancer/contractor) for a contract they're basically going to take one off the shelf and hand it to you. They might change one or two lines to be specific to the type of work you do, or run it through a couple if-else conditions that aren't relevant to everybody. But in the few times I've dealt with contracts the boilerplate percentage was well above your 90% mark.

You could theoretically say the same thing about a CRUD app

Re: Show HN: Crowdsourced freelance contract template, written in plain language

#50

Post by JamesBarney »

kemitchell wrote: post #25
tptacek wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is the conflict section in there at all, though? To the extent it's there now, it's conceding something clients hope to get through redlines; game-theoretically, it's pure negative for the contractor.

It's obviously for the client's benefit. But additional turns of the agreement aren't good for anyone. Clients typically have the leverage to get this. I've included a fairly contractor-leaning formulation, which requires the client to act.

This isn't my experience. Most clients I've dealt with won't kill a deal over a non-compete, but most consultants I know will.
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