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Show HN: We built a Plug-in Home Battery for the 99.7% of us without Powerwalls

pilaenergy.com

371–380 of 492 posts

Re: Show HN: We built a Plug-in Home Battery for the 99.7% of us without Powerwalls

#371

It looks beautiful. But I honestly don't understand what the market is. OP answered in one of the comments that it will run a single fridge for 32 hours. I understand the benefits of a UPS that will run your desktop computer during a brief power outage of a couple of hours. And I understand a generator that will keep your house running for 10 days after a natural disaster. And I understand a Powerwall that can suck u…

Backup can be extended to 62 hours through an expansion pack. A foldable solar array can be plugged in as well to extend backup indefinitely for long outages.

Indefinitely? The device has 2.4kW output and allows plugging in 1.2kW of solar which will work for a part of the day. That's not how "extend indefinitely" works.

Re: Show HN: We built a Plug-in Home Battery for the 99.7% of us without Powerwalls

#372
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That could actually be a bigger problem for the company, since it means that any competitor can label their competing product the merely descriptive term "Pila", and the company won't be able to register the trademark in the US, according to the Trademark Manual of Examining Procedure §1209.03(g): https://www.bitlaw.com/source/tmep/1209_03_g.html > The foreign equivalent of a merely descriptive English word is no mor…

> I'm pretty sure that in any city in the US there is a store where you can walk in today, ask for a "pila", and walk out with a battery. Being 2nd most common language does not mean this, by a long shot. It definitely won’t work in most of the Seattle, Portland, Denver, Salt lake, Minneapolis, stores for example.

The GP said that in any city there is a store. Not that all or most stores will understand that request, but that there is at least one.

Re: Show HN: We built a Plug-in Home Battery for the 99.7% of us without Powerwalls

#373

I don't understand this. It's a tiny backup battery with an expensive enclosure, with only 100W of solar input? How are you expected to run solar wiring with this in your living room? The places that can afford this rarely have power outages, so having an dedicated appliance sitting in your living room or kitchen for those 1-2 times a year doesn't make sense. The capacity is barely enough to run your fridge for a day…

Is this a product for the USA? Is the grid that bad to need something like that?

Re: Show HN: We built a Plug-in Home Battery for the 99.7% of us without Powerwalls

#374

I like the idea and would probably reserve some if I still lived in the US. But I don't think you should be setting yourself up against Powerwalls so directly. You're not really competing for the same market. The power storage solution for the 99.7% of us without Powerwalls is in fact Powerwalls (or similar) if you have solar panels/want a serious amount of backup power storage. Your offering is not that. In fact, I…

Great point, thank you!

Re: Show HN: We built a Plug-in Home Battery for the 99.7% of us without Powerwalls

#375
post #309

I'd love to have better backup power but I'm skeptical of huge lithium batteries inside my home. Here's a tiny scooter battery going on fire spontaneously: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ld00r-tEEJ4 Can we use something other than lithium for home battery backups? Weight isn't really a concern.

Lithium batteries can be made to be safe. There are millions of electric cars on the road.

Re: Show HN: We built a Plug-in Home Battery for the 99.7% of us without Powerwalls

#376
I'm very interested in this. I spent awhile a year or so ago researching and speccing out a similar project. I was thinking potentially you could offer a product like this for free or very cheap in a deal where the home owner pays their normal current utility rates but you switch them to time of use rates and offload enough of their usage during peak to make a profit. I was also thinking potentially utilities would pay to use devices like these for demand response if you were able to get decent scale which could also be part of the model to offering them for free/cheap.

Some random thoughts:

- I really like the industrial design on your device. The form factor for right above the fridge is exactly what I was envisioning.

- I would love a lower than 20 ms switching time. This is right on the border of might keep your machine on or not. I don't understand why battery backups for hardware have been so stuck and mediocre for so long. Last i checked there was only really one company selling LiFePO for this target. A Pila mini 200-300 Wh with a faster switching time would be amazing and would sell a lot i think if under $300.

- I was hopeful when I first saw this that you had sorted out some way to easily have this run on mains or at least a single circuit. Which i understand would require some level of electrical work but i don't understand why that has to be such a big barrier and why it can't be simplified and standardized enough to the same level as like installing a smart thermostat so even if you are renting it is just a minor inconvenience/cost thing.

- There are significant diminishing returns to the amount of battery backup in my opinion. There is a huge advantage to having any system at all even just a few hundred Wh just to run some lights and charge devices or fridge for a bit. I don't have the data but anecdotally most outages are in the hours range not days range. Still for some reason a HUGE percent of people have absolutely no battery backup at all. And then on the other end full sized power your whole home with no lifestyle adjustments for days systems that costs tens of thousands are equally ridiculous. The sweet spot is a couple kWh in terms of giving you still a lot of flexibility but reasonable prices, oddly to me this seems the most underserved segment.

On my original idea I was thinking of a device similar to your form factor but target squarely at running fridges for ~8-12 hours. Fridge alone won't work for time of use but if you could manufacture this as cheap as possible and make a deal with utilities from the demand response angle and some sort of special time of use deal I think there could be a sweet business. You would have to target specific utilities/regions at a time but if you could get 50k plus units in a region and at under $200 to the consumer I think utilities would be interested.

Re: Show HN: We built a Plug-in Home Battery for the 99.7% of us without Powerwalls

#377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To give more functionality around energy management, we wanted all of the batteries to be able to work in concert. We could have gone with "any old wireless" network to coordinate the batteries. One thing that's really stuck with me from building products at Span and Tesla is how important reliable connection is over years of operation. Depending on consumer wifi is a huge pain for reliability (changed passwords, inh…

Did you consider using homeplug, IEEE 1901, or some other network over powerline standard? I imagine it being more reliable if they're all behind the same breaker.

Unfortunately, AC powerlines are extremely noisy. Powerline comms are used by SolarEdge to communicate with their optimizers. Because it’s a small closed loop there is far less noise than the home grid.

Re: Show HN: We built a Plug-in Home Battery for the 99.7% of us without Powerwalls

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That video's conclusion is misleading - he's only shifting his fridge's energy consumption. That's not actually much in the grand scheme of things - it's a well-insulated box that is already a thermal battery. In fact, he only discharged his power bank to 64% at the end of the day, so he didn't even use up his full capacity (that he paid for and is factored in his spreadsheet). Batteries can provide significant savin…

> I believe the Pila can technically do the above, although its battery capacity is probably too small to ever recoup its purchase price on this type of arbitrage. That's my point, thank you for putting it so succinctly. The front page opens showing the Pila being used for a refrigerator — presumably doing load shifting, given the front page marketing copy I quoted — so I think asking for data showing that this is a…

It definitely does load shifting and utility rate arbitrage (and solar power charging) as a side benefit, but it’s not built to be an arbitrage machine. Its primary use case is backup, for now.

Re: Show HN: We built a Plug-in Home Battery for the 99.7% of us without Powerwalls

#379

It looks beautiful. But I honestly don't understand what the market is. OP answered in one of the comments that it will run a single fridge for 32 hours. I understand the benefits of a UPS that will run your desktop computer during a brief power outage of a couple of hours. And I understand a generator that will keep your house running for 10 days after a natural disaster. And I understand a Powerwall that can suck u…

I think it can charge when power is cheap (or off solar if you have it), and then power a device (like a fridge) when power is expensive, even if you aren't in the midst of a power outage. So it's a bit more than a UPS, and isn't just for handling outages.

Regarding cost, looks like this is $1k for a 1.6kWh battery. The Powerwall 3 is $9874 (plus installation costs) for a 13.5kWh battery. So Plia costs $625/kWh, while Powerwall 3 will run you $731.41/kWh. So it does seem the Plia is price-competitive, assuming my paragraph above is correct. And Powerwall will cost you even more than that per kWh since Plia is a self-install, while Powerwall is not.

Granted, there are cheaper options than Powerwall.

Plia certainly has its downsides: if you want it to power everything in your home, you have to put one (or more) in each room and plug everything into it (that's 8 or 9 Plias per Powerwall-equivalent). Presumably a whole-home battery can charge faster than a Plia, since you're probably plugging it into a 15A outlet where it'll be pulling less than 1800W.

Re: Show HN: We built a Plug-in Home Battery for the 99.7% of us without Powerwalls

#380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To give more functionality around energy management, we wanted all of the batteries to be able to work in concert. We could have gone with "any old wireless" network to coordinate the batteries. One thing that's really stuck with me from building products at Span and Tesla is how important reliable connection is over years of operation. Depending on consumer wifi is a huge pain for reliability (changed passwords, inh…

I'm curious about the Zigbee limitations you're alluding to. Bandwidth is limited for sure, but I would expect a sub-GHz mesh network to be even more limited. The only issue I could potentially see is that a Zigbee mesh might work great when the power is all on, but might suddenly partition once power is cut and some intermediate nodes suddenly go offline. That would be a surprising thing to happen in the middle of a…

Zigbee is on the same frequency as WiFi and therefore suffers from all the same issues that WiFi has interference and limited range. SolarCity used Zigbee for communication with solar inverters. It was very unreliable. Tesla moved to WiFi after acquiring SolarCity.
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