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Show HN: Report idling vehicles in NYC (and get a cut of the fines) with AI

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Re: Show HN: Report idling vehicles in NYC (and get a cut of the fines) with AI

#301

Post by rafram »

gametorch wrote: post #288
tomhow wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't try to game HN like this. We can easily turn off the flamewar detector when the topic warrants it, and users who post excessive numbers of low-quality comments can have rate-limiting turned on. There seems to be a whole lot of drama about this project and from what I can see there are reasonable arguments for and against. How about just respecting the merits of open debate about a topic and let other rea…

[flagged]

pvg isn't a HN mod, for what it's worth.

I'm sorry that my project caused you this much distress. If you live in NYC and hate the idling complaint law, lobby your representatives to kill it. I didn't make the law or even the service that lets you file reports under it. I just wrote an API client.

People have filed idling complaints for years, long before this app existed. Even if your comments somehow convinced me that publishing Idle Reporter is an "evil" act (as you claim), and I decided to take it down and go become a Tibetan monk, people would still file complaints as they always have.

Re: Show HN: Report idling vehicles in NYC (and get a cut of the fines) with AI

#302

Post by robertlagrant »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #290
bluefirebrand wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s for a specific kind of scofflaw activity Well, history shows us that any system that grants a power to government eventually expands beyond its original use. So you will forgive me for thinking it's a bad idea to start

If you follow that train of thought to it's logical conclusion, government should have no power at all, since any government power could be used for bad.

Certainly constantly bashing down on increasing government power is the only thing that's ever defended against that.

Re: Show HN: Report idling vehicles in NYC (and get a cut of the fines) with AI

#303

Post by hiAndrewQuinn »

btown wrote: post #280
mhuffman wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is a phenomenal application of how fine-based bounties can be used to rapidly improve compliance with the law. This type of thing can get out of hand quickly. Without me giving controversial examples, just imagine for yourself the types of things that different states can make a crime, add a fine, then offer to give other citizens part or all of that fine if they turn in others. After that, think of how unscrup…

I think an important wake-up call is that bounties now exist in an ecosystem where people who would normally be indifferent to wanting/knowing how to collect bounties, could be driven by techniques from the predatory-gambling-app world into becoming gamified enforcers. We’re already sliding down the slope, to be sure, but this is an acceleration that we should expect with our eyes wide open.

Yes, and? It's a good thing to get crimes reported more often, faster, and with more and higher quality evidence. (That last statement doesn't directly follow from bounties in the short term, but it does once you start considering the competitive pressures crime detectors face in such a market.)

You can run a thought experiment to confirm this. Suppose 1/2 of all crimes committed in your area currently get reported. You are offered the option to move to two new places, identical in every way to your starting point, except New Town A has 3/4 of the crimes committed get reported*. New Town B has only 1/4 of the crimes committed get reported. Do you move? Where to?

The important thing to notice is less that New Town A seems like a pretty good deal, than that New Town B seems like a really bad one. Plenty of people would move to New Town A for the obvious additional security. Some of people would elect to stay, for reasons like New Town A isn't guaranteed to be exactly like where you currently are into the future, and home is home. But almost nobody would move to New Town B. The people who would jump for joy at moving to New Town B may even be criminals themselves trying to escape charges or just hedge their futures.

* For the sake of completeness, you can consider this property preserved across different types of crime. E.g. if 90% of homicides get reported in your current locale, 95% do in New Town A, and only 45% in New Town B do. If 20% of money laundering schemes get reported, 60% do in New Town A, and 10% in New Town B. Etc. The general idea of everything being more or less detectable is more important than the specific numbers.

Re: Show HN: Report idling vehicles in NYC (and get a cut of the fines) with AI

#304

Post by Kbelicius »

lan321 wrote: post #285
Kbelicius wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> random people should not be given financial incentives to regulate things they don't understand They aren't regulating...

Yes they are. The summons part is essentially what happens when a cop issues you a ticket.. > What happens after I submit my complaint? > Where DEP issues the summons, you will be informed of the summons number and hearing date. You may need to be available in person or by phone to testify. If the summons is upheld, the respondent must pay the penalty in order for you to receive payment for your complaint, You should…

> Yes they are. The summons part is essentially what happens when a cop issues you a ticket..

They are reporting, not regulating. You don't get a ticket from a random person.

> The more I read about it, the more it seems like a great scam, though. Film trucks, make them appear to be running for a couple of tokens and drown your competition in fines. Once a day on some trial will likely be enough even.

This rule is in place for a long time. It isn't a scam nor is what you dreamt up happening.

Re: Show HN: Report idling vehicles in NYC (and get a cut of the fines) with AI

#305

Post by freejazz »

hiAndrewQuinn wrote: post #201
mhuffman wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I've said elsewhere the optimal mechanism here is for that money to be paid to the snitcher, from the person who is being turned in. In some cases, which seem like a good idea like corporate malfeasance whistleblowers or government grift whistleblowers. This is because the people paid by our tax dollars would be at a disadvantage compared to an insider in the company. In others, you could see the direction it must g…

Re/ the speed limit, I'm afraid I simply don't understand. Why not just raise the speed limit to 70 instead of having everyone lie? If everyone starts then doing 75, why not raise it again? Eventually you'll hit a breakeven point. Considering that most highway accidents happen because two people disagree about the speed they should be driving at, and considering that fatalities and accident severity in such accidents…

> Why not just raise the speed limit to 70 instead of having everyone lie?

What's the lie? They are just going 70 in a 65... that's not a lie.

Re: Show HN: Report idling vehicles in NYC (and get a cut of the fines) with AI

#306

Post by freejazz »

hiAndrewQuinn wrote: post #265
close04 wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know populism is a thing but speed limits aren’t formally set for people’s preference but for safety and environmental reasons. “Most” people choosing to break the law doesn’t change that, and adjusting the law becomes a populist thing. Accidents on the highway do not happen because people don’t agree on the speed to drive at, more than they happen because “cars exist”. They happen because drivers drive faster than…

>Not everyone is capable of buying laws. Actually, no one is capable of 'buying' a law. Laws are passed via the processes of the legislative system. Sure, you can try to bribe someone like a Congressman into voting for or against certain things, but this is very different from just buying a law outright, and people are constantly watching Congressmen to ensure this kind of behavior doesn't get too out of hand. "Nobod…

>Actually, no one is capable of 'buying' a law. Laws are passed via the processes of the legislative system. Sure, you can try to bribe someone like a Congressman into voting for or against certain things, but this is very different from just buying a law outright, and people are constantly watching Congressmen to ensure this kind of behavior doesn't get too out of hand.

What unproductive pedantry. I find your comments exhausting because of their wordiness that stands in contrast to the ridiculous assumptions that your verbosity hides.

Re: Show HN: Report idling vehicles in NYC (and get a cut of the fines) with AI

#307

Post by freejazz »

singleshot_ wrote: post #292
12ian34 wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the problem? Why is this the wrong kind of law enforcement?

Now in addition to hoping the police aren't corrupt, we have to hope this guy is not corrupt, and that everyone who uses his system isn't corrupt. Not great (but our starting point wasn't great, either).

What does the app have to do with it? The app doesn't give fines.

Re: Show HN: Report idling vehicles in NYC (and get a cut of the fines) with AI

#308

Post by freejazz »

raxxorraxor wrote: post #258
hiAndrewQuinn wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have it backwards. A perfect detection rate for crime makes it much more important that we define conservatively what we even consider to be a crime in the first place, and then what kind of punishment we levy upon it. You also have it backwards because it already reliably makes society better for you. Take the case of Biogen employee Michael Bawduniak, who spent seven years documenting covert payments that steer…

That is entirely different type of crime. Do you let an AI write your comments?

I think the poster does.

Re: Show HN: Report idling vehicles in NYC (and get a cut of the fines) with AI

#309

Post by gametorch »

meepmorp wrote: post #296
gametorch wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> I went to war because the HN mods this is an entirely ridiculous statement

> I will absolutely act in good faith and not game the system, but only as long as the mods do that too. As soon as the mods do that in a thread, all bets are off. Could not care less if I get banned for defending myself in such a situation.

Re: Show HN: Report idling vehicles in NYC (and get a cut of the fines) with AI

#310

Post by gametorch »

rafram wrote: post #301
gametorch wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

pvg isn't a HN mod, for what it's worth. I'm sorry that my project caused you this much distress. If you live in NYC and hate the idling complaint law, lobby your representatives to kill it. I didn't make the law or even the service that lets you file reports under it. I just wrote an API client. People have filed idling complaints for years, long before this app existed. Even if your comments somehow convinced me th…

Don't get me wrong, I hate idling trucks too.

But I have been and will continue to be extremely vocal about how shitty it is to automate snitching.

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