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Show HN: Plain – The full-stack Python framework designed for humans and agents

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Re: Show HN: Plain – The full-stack Python framework designed for humans and agents

#31

Post by Clo_Claw »

Great take!

I think the "agents only know what's in training data" argument never made sense to me. I've watched Claude read a markdown skill file and correctly invoke a CLI it had never seen before.

The thing that actually matters is whether your interface is predictable consistent verbs, typed errors, no magic. Agents are surprisingly good at learning from docs, they're just terrible at guessing.

The real question for Plain isn't "will agents know it", it's whether the opinionated defaults actually reduce the surface area they have to reason over. Django's flexibility is kind of a nightmare for agents because there are 6 ways to do everything. If Plain picks one, that's genuinely useful.

Anyway, "designed for humans and agents" is going to be on every framework README by EOY whether it means anything or not, so might as well be the one that actually thought about it first ;P

Re: Show HN: Plain – The full-stack Python framework designed for humans and agents

#33

Post by mg794613 »

awongh wrote: post #11

TLDR: - fork of django - it's opinionated - typed - comes with skills / rules / docs baked in I'm not against this idea in principle, but I'm also not sure why that is better than what's already out there, except maybe you save some tokens by not vibe coding this yourself? I do think in the future we'll see some novel libraries that are agent-optimized first. I'm not sure if this is it, though. (edit: formatting)

Its better because:

* this dev can merge what he want instead of being stopped by those evil django developers * it looks very cool on your cv * hence the function name changes and the tiny notion at the bottom that the project is "inspired" by another. Absolutely crucial!

Re: Show HN: Plain – The full-stack Python framework designed for humans and agents

#35

Post by drchaim »

murkt wrote: post #30

Class-based views were a problem when they were introduced in Django, and they’re still a problem. Especially for the so-called AI-ready framework. Because of indirection, you either have to go read all the basic classes, or read documentation three times over. Instead of just reading the self-contained view function itself, once. Especially true for an agent, it will have to go read the new framework’s docs and sour…

that's so true, I still prefer function based views

Re: Show HN: Plain – The full-stack Python framework designed for humans and agents

#37

Post by dirkc »

UPDATE - should this be a Show HN? This isn't posted by the author and there are better links to share with more info about the who, what and why: https://plainframework.com/about/

From the Show HN guide/rules:

> The project must be something you've worked on personally and which you're around to discuss. See these tips about how to present your work.

Re: Show HN: Plain – The full-stack Python framework designed for humans and agents

#38

Post by gbibas »

SwellJoe wrote: post #14

Inventing a new thing "for agents" always feels counter-productive. Your new thing isn't in the training data, so you have to teach it how to use your thing. Why not use tech that's already in the training data? Agents know Python and Django. Or, better (because the performance, maintainability, and deployment story are much nicer with no extra work, since agents write the code), agents know Go. The very nature of LL…

This makes sense, but it also causes concern. With AI whether it is content or programming, losing the new novel approaches which may wind up being better in the long run, get shut down for expediency in the short run. This is nothing new and not AI specific behavior, large comoanies have been doing this forever, but it leads to a death of innovation and a spiral inward of self reinforcing loops. You are absolutely right that llms won’t know it and will need to learn something like this all over, but they are good at that and if we stop to find better patterns (which is what humans are great at doing) we keep creativity alive and find meaning while making our work more productive in the long term.

Re: Show HN: Plain – The full-stack Python framework designed for humans and agents

#39

Post by SwellJoe »

gbibas wrote: post #38
SwellJoe wrote: post #14

Inventing a new thing "for agents" always feels counter-productive. Your new thing isn't in the training data, so you have to teach it how to use your thing. Why not use tech that's already in the training data? Agents know Python and Django. Or, better (because the performance, maintainability, and deployment story are much nicer with no extra work, since agents write the code), agents know Go. The very nature of LL…

This makes sense, but it also causes concern. With AI whether it is content or programming, losing the new novel approaches which may wind up being better in the long run, get shut down for expediency in the short run. This is nothing new and not AI specific behavior, large comoanies have been doing this forever, but it leads to a death of innovation and a spiral inward of self reinforcing loops. You are absolutely r…

That's a different conversation than the one I'm having. I haven't made any argument against making new things.

I'm saying "Django, but different" isn't for agents. It makes agents work harder, in general.

Make anything you want. Just don't lie to yourself and others about who it's for.

Re: Show HN: Plain – The full-stack Python framework designed for humans and agents

#40

Post by rhubarbtree »

SwellJoe wrote: post #14

Inventing a new thing "for agents" always feels counter-productive. Your new thing isn't in the training data, so you have to teach it how to use your thing. Why not use tech that's already in the training data? Agents know Python and Django. Or, better (because the performance, maintainability, and deployment story are much nicer with no extra work, since agents write the code), agents know Go. The very nature of LL…

Yeah this is just wrong.

The whole point of AI is that it can generalise to stuff outside its training set, and anyone who uses Claude on a daily basis completes tasks that have not already been completed elsewhere.

These models excel at tool use. They’re using CRMs, word processors and dozens of other systems that weren’t programmable before - lots of tools have opened MCP/API/CLI interfaces for the first time specifically to support AI, and it works.

I don’t know where this meme comes from, but we haven’t “invented the last language” and we’re not going to be frozen in 2023 for tooling, any more than the Industrial Revolution led to automation of artisan workshops rather than the invention of the modern factory system.

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