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Show HN: HTML for People

htmlforpeople.com

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Re: Show HN: HTML for People

#31

Post by layman51 »

username135 wrote: post #20
MathMonkeyMan wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My dad was asking me a question about backing something up onto Google Drive, or saving space on some cloud storage account, or something. He was using the mental model of files and folders -- that files exist and refer to stored bytes, and that there can be one or several copies of a file. There can be links to a file that take very little space relative to the file. I had to tell him that I have no idea what sort o…

Can you elaborate on what you told your father? When i use google drive, the interface appears to be folder/file structure. Whether it is or is made to look that way is irrelevant, i suppose, as long as it works that way. I can also increase storage by downloading/deleting things so Im a bit flummoxed.

In my opinion, Google Drive is basically the same as the traditional file structure. Where it gets very confusing for people is when it comes to collaboration. Before 2020 or so, there was confusion around copying the same Google Doc so it appears in multiple locations, and making shortcuts to it instead. Look up stuff around the “Shift + Z” keyboard shortcut if you want to learn more.

Re: Show HN: HTML for People

#32

Post by Novosell »

0cf8612b2e1e wrote: post #30
_lvbh wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's crazy how bad the mobile epidemic has gotten. There are kids coming into a Computer Science degree that can't figure out how to unzip a zip or even finding out where files get downloaded to. (Fwiw, those I know dropped out before 2nd year)

At one point, every member of a CS program started without having ever seen or touched a computer. Everyone has to start somewhere. We do not reject new biology majors because they had never touched a microscope before entering the program.

The difference is that these days the people are surrounded by computers and probably interact with a computer many hours every day, yet they are barely more tech savvy than that first lot who had never seen a computer before.

But so it goes when society moves forward.

Re: Show HN: HTML for People

#33

Post by Novosell »

Retr0id wrote: post #18
forbiddenvoid wrote: post #13

I love the idea and I'm thrilled to see more sites like this out there. But I do think this assumes a level of computer literacy that isn't consistent with typical, non-technical users. Step 1 starts with: > Pick a location on your computer and create a folder. Call it my-site or something similar. You've already lost the vast majority of people right here. There are a shockingly large number of people out there that…

I suspect even a majority of HN users visited the page on a mobile device, and were not in a position to immediately follow the instructions.

Android allows you to create directories.

Re: Show HN: HTML for People

#34

Post by Retr0id »

Novosell wrote: post #33
Retr0id wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect even a majority of HN users visited the page on a mobile device, and were not in a position to immediately follow the instructions.

Android allows you to create directories.

As does iOS, but the instructions given were for a desktop device.

Re: Show HN: HTML for People

#35

Post by debacle »

> I don’t think websites were ever intended to be made only by “web professionals.”

I absolutely agree with this, in both directions - the tools we have kind of suck if the web WAS meant for professionals, but also that I remember learning HTML from tutorials in 1995, and back then there wasn't much of a difference between a good website or a great website except that a good website used a table based layout and didn't have prev/next navigation.

Re: Show HN: HTML for People

#36

Post by divbzero »

BirdEBird wrote: post #29
simonw wrote: post #8

This is great. The decision to skip CSS by depending on https://simplecss.org/ is smart - CSS is a whole other thing, and having that on top of basic HTML would be pretty intimidating. I did worry a bit about https://htmlforpeople.com/zero-to-internet-your-first-websit... - "Step 1. Create a folder on your computer" - because apparently a large number of people these days don't understand files and folders at all! ht…

Good article, but the reason is obvious: When opening an app or a web app stopped opening a new document and started to present a list of recent documents, that was the beginning of the end. If someone wants a file, they open the app for that file and scroll down. They have never needed to make sense of a file existing independently of the app in which it was create and may be viewed. This process was cemented by iOS…

The Android Files app has always allowed access to local files, and the iOS Files app has allowed access to local files since 2019.

https://www.cultofmac.com/news/files-app-makes-ipad-more-mac...

However, neither of them are typically used in mobile UX patterns.

Re: Show HN: HTML for People

#37

Post by jachee »

divbzero wrote: post #36
BirdEBird wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good article, but the reason is obvious: When opening an app or a web app stopped opening a new document and started to present a list of recent documents, that was the beginning of the end. If someone wants a file, they open the app for that file and scroll down. They have never needed to make sense of a file existing independently of the app in which it was create and may be viewed. This process was cemented by iOS…

The Android Files app has always allowed access to local files, and the iOS Files app has allowed access to local files since 2019. https://www.cultofmac.com/news/files-app-makes-ipad-more-mac... However, neither of them are typically used in mobile UX patterns.

The five years since then haven’t been enough time to change 12 years of behavior.

Re: Show HN: HTML for People

#38

Post by blakewatson »

mightybyte wrote: post #7

I think the fundamental approach being taken by this project is immensely valuable to the world. This kind of education about open standards might actually be the most powerful tool that can help us take steps in the direction away from giant opaque corporations and back towards the systems based on open standards that the internet originated from. I really hope this project continues to be updated and get more and m…

OP here. I appreciate the kind words. Yeah, I hope it finds its way into the hands of non-professionals.

Re: Show HN: HTML for People

#39

Post by blakewatson »

aardvark179 wrote: post #5

Why, “Start coding already!” rather than something like, “Start writing already?” I think half the barrier to people building sites is that they think they need to know how to code, and that seems scary, but they do know what they want to write, and that seems more approachable.

OP here. Oooh that’s a good suggestion. Yeah it’s hard to shed the webdev persona and see it through fresh eyes—even though I specifically tried to do just that!

Re: Show HN: HTML for People

#40

Post by cryptoz »

divbzero wrote: post #36
BirdEBird wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good article, but the reason is obvious: When opening an app or a web app stopped opening a new document and started to present a list of recent documents, that was the beginning of the end. If someone wants a file, they open the app for that file and scroll down. They have never needed to make sense of a file existing independently of the app in which it was create and may be viewed. This process was cemented by iOS…

The Android Files app has always allowed access to local files, and the iOS Files app has allowed access to local files since 2019. https://www.cultofmac.com/news/files-app-makes-ipad-more-mac... However, neither of them are typically used in mobile UX patterns.

> the iOS Files app has allowed access to local files since 2019

Huh. I just opened my Files app on my iPhone 12 and went to On My iPhone (which was 2-3 more taps once arriving in the app). I don't see many of my files though, just a few. Some PDFs and a Spotify folder. But I don't see my pictures there? Or are pictures no longer stored as 'files'? Or do you mean that the app has allowed access only to some local user files? It's not all local files. And it's not all non-system local files. And it's not all user files. In fact it is missing > 99% of my user-space files (specifically ones created with default-OS applications on device, by the user).

And if I make a Note in the Notes app, will it show up as a file in the Files app? Probably not, I would guess. Because the note probably isn't really a file anyway. So pictures aren't files, and notes aren't files. What would a file be then? Are files only PDFs? That's the only thing that shows up for me. I guess PDFs are the only things that are files then!

Super confusing experience. I'm a mobile app developer by the way - on Android. Android sucks at this too of course. But the iOS Files app is much too limited to enable users to 'get' the concept of a file.

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