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Show HN: Offset – Credit card powered by trust between people

offsetcredit.org

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Re: Show HN: Offset – Credit card powered by trust between people

#31

Post by jkhdigital »

realcr wrote: post #9
stagas wrote: post #2

This looked initially like a cool idea, then I realized that to trade with someone you have to have a mutual credit line with them, or through someone who already has a credit line. How is this any different than the current model, where the bank/government/central money issuer is our mutual credit line and why wouldn't this model eventually end up with banker-type people managing the credit for everyone? You could g…

Hi. You are correct, you need to have some credit line, possibly indirect, between you and the other party, if you want to send money or receive money with Offset. This is the core of how Offset works. > why wouldn't this model eventually end up with banker-type people managing the credit for everyone? I thought about this question for a long time myself. As a first note, I don't think Offset should completely replac…

Flow is limited by the narrowest pipe along the path, and my suspicion is that you would need to get to pretty damn high user adoption before you could expect consistent, high flow between points since you'll need to find many alternative paths. Prior to that level, the network wouldn't be very useful.

Still not entirely sure what problem this solves. As a consumer, I don't really have an issue with current payment systems. I can buy everything I need in seconds, and banks compete for my business by (as stated elsewhere in this thread) giving me kickbacks from the fees they take from merchants.

As a merchant, you're not going to trust your customers/suppliers at the level that would justify extending an unsecured line of credit to all of them. Not going to happen. Yes, perhaps payment systems suck, but honestly payments are an incredibly hard problem. A robust legal system which enforces contracts solves the hardest problems, I suppose, but legal action is slow and expensive so it's still pretty hard.

Re: Show HN: Offset – Credit card powered by trust between people

#32

Post by jkhdigital »

alexmingoia wrote: post #30

The biggest advantage over bitcoin is that this is truly p2p. Bitcoin isn’t p2p in the sense that transactions require third parties (miners). You can only transact as long as miners choose to mine. If miners stop mining for any reason bitcoin is unusable. There’s also no risk of 51% attacks and hard forks. You could also run offset off the Internet on local networks.

> If miners stop mining for any reason bitcoins are worthless

That's like saying "if your heart stops beating for any reason you're dead". True, but meaningless. Miners mine while bitcoins have value, and bitcoins have value while miners mine. In fact bitcoins had zero value when they were first created, and yet someone still mined them.

Re: Show HN: Offset – Credit card powered by trust between people

#33

Post by [deleted] »

jkhdigital wrote: post #32
alexmingoia wrote: post #30

The biggest advantage over bitcoin is that this is truly p2p. Bitcoin isn’t p2p in the sense that transactions require third parties (miners). You can only transact as long as miners choose to mine. If miners stop mining for any reason bitcoin is unusable. There’s also no risk of 51% attacks and hard forks. You could also run offset off the Internet on local networks.

> If miners stop mining for any reason bitcoins are worthless That's like saying "if your heart stops beating for any reason you're dead". True, but meaningless. Miners mine while bitcoins have value, and bitcoins have value while miners mine. In fact bitcoins had zero value when they were first created, and yet someone still mined them.

[deleted]

Re: Show HN: Offset – Credit card powered by trust between people

#34

Post by osrec »

Incredibly interesting. As an ex-banker, I've always thought our current money creation mechanism is a bit messed up. This is an interesting alternative.

Questions from me:

If someone wishes to make a payment, Offset will find the best path via friendships to facilitate the transaction. What if a bunch of people are offline and no path can be found? Does this require the creation of a direct friendship?

Do you imagine certain nodes trying to become "hyperconnected" so that they may connect as many people as possible, and earn fees from providing this service?

What algorithm do you use to compute the shortest/cheapest be path between two counterparties? Does this scale well in a distributed, self-hosted system?

How does one establish a friendship/trust with another party, and who sets the credit limits for the relationship?

Re: Show HN: Offset – Credit card powered by trust between people

#35

Post by splintercell »

technotony wrote: post #23
centimeter wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is a tension between store of value and medium of exchange This tension only exists under Keynesian reasoning. It goes away when you use a theory that does a better job handling equilibria. The Keynesian claim is that if you have a deflationary medium of exchange, people won’t spend it. This isn’t actually true - the end result of a predictable deflationary asset (e.g. something with a fixed or essentially fi…

It's less that they won't spend it, and more they won't invest it. As you point out if you can get exposure to global capital growth by keeping your money in cash you will do that. This starves the world of risk capital being invested in new projects, the net benefit of which is responsible for capital growth. So nobody invests and technological progress drives to a halt (well maybe governments invest in military tec…

But here's the issue in Keynesian thinking, all savings is investment, it's investment in money. Like any investment, it has a return (which comes from the increased value of money), and risk (if instead of increase value, the value of money is decreased).

Re: Show HN: Offset – Credit card powered by trust between people

#36

Post by thinkloop »

stagas wrote: post #5
fiatjaf wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If one, this would be open. The current banking system doesn't suck because people are greedy or bankers are bad people. It sucks because it is closed and no one can join. (If you're tempted to say: "no, anyone can join, they just have to fulfill the regulations blablabla", then this is your answer.)

There are local communities around the world that run their own credit lines for exchange of goods outside of the banking system, so it's not that Offset is enabling something that isn't happening already. Maybe the software is more convenient but is it any more different? I'm trying to understand. My question is what's preventing few people accumulating trust and credit lines and eventually becoming bankers for this…

> My question is what's preventing few people accumulating trust and credit lines and eventually becoming bankers for this system?

That would be great, it would be more credit for everyone and wouldn't take away anyone else's credit - and if they start misbehaving they can be quickly replaced.

Re: Show HN: Offset – Credit card powered by trust between people

#37

Post by johnorourke »

This is novel and interesting, and could be used on a micro scale (say a group of friends who regularly split dinner bills) or macro. How would you solve the issue of losing data and nodes (through corruption, hardware failure, etc), or people being offline? I suspect if it grew, people would offer "hosted nodes", where they keep your data and stay online for transactions 24x7, in return for taking that transaction fee... so, like a bank!

Re: Show HN: Offset – Credit card powered by trust between people

#38

Post by Enginerrrd »

splintercell wrote: post #35
technotony wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's less that they won't spend it, and more they won't invest it. As you point out if you can get exposure to global capital growth by keeping your money in cash you will do that. This starves the world of risk capital being invested in new projects, the net benefit of which is responsible for capital growth. So nobody invests and technological progress drives to a halt (well maybe governments invest in military tec…

But here's the issue in Keynesian thinking, all savings is investment, it's investment in money. Like any investment, it has a return (which comes from the increased value of money), and risk (if instead of increase value, the value of money is decreased).

Yes, but hiding your money in the mattress doesn't create jobs, businesses, innovation, etc. I fail to see the "issue in Keynesian thinking" you're talking about.

Re: Show HN: Offset – Credit card powered by trust between people

#39

Post by evandijk70 »

Seems quite similar to a Dutch app, wiebetaaltwat, which is used a lot here.

It is mostly used for thinks like days out and group holidays, and allows you to share expenses as well. Still, I have heard some people never settle their balance and just have an ongoing list. Whoever owes the most picks up the tab the next outing.

https://wiebetaaltwat.nl/about/how

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