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Show HN: Crowdsourced freelance contract template, written in plain language

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Re: Show HN: Crowdsourced freelance contract template, written in plain language

#31

Post by lgleason »

This is definitely missing a lot of protections for both sides.

An interesting story.

I have a standard contract I usually use with startups etc. that is written to be fair to both parties and vetted by multiple attorneys. One that I worked with insisted that I use theirs. When I went through it, it was clear that they took it from a template and there were numerous holes in it that I pushed back on. They stated that all of their other contractors used it successfully and I replied that these people must not have read the contract.

It was at that point that I pointed out that the jurisdiction, "Orange County Georgia" does not exist (they had obviously copied it from a California template or contract) among other things. Against my better judgement I re-wrote their contract and used it. They ended up being a major pain in the ass client that was really bad at basic communication. IE: would not answer direct questions in writing with yes or no answers.

Contract negotiations are often a sign of things to come with the rest of the engagement.

Re: Show HN: Crowdsourced freelance contract template, written in plain language

#32

Post by cooperadymas »

rv-de wrote: post #20

What I don't get. And I suppose I am speaking here for 99% of all developers without a background in law. How can it be so difficult to create a contract framework? How can there possibly so many variations on that theme that you need a lawyer to do that? I do understand that there are circumstances where legal advice is necessary. But at least 90% of all freelance (and other) contracts should be coverable with a man…

IANAL either, but if you go to a lawyer (as a freelancer/contractor) for a contract they're basically going to take one off the shelf and hand it to you. They might change one or two lines to be specific to the type of work you do, or run it through a couple if-else conditions that aren't relevant to everybody. But in the few times I've dealt with contracts the boilerplate percentage was well above your 90% mark.

Re: Show HN: Crowdsourced freelance contract template, written in plain language

#33

Post by pnw_hazor »

hiccuphippo wrote: post #28
ruairidhwm wrote: post #26

I've seen quite a few of these and whilst I love the idea, they usually have a ton of problems in them. As tptacek pointed out - there is no chance that this document would survive first contact with a sophisticated party and any qualified lawyer would likely rip this to shreds. Firstly there is no regard to the potential jurisdiction that the user chooses. If I were to put in England then that would mean there are d…

I wonder if there could be a library of legal terms so I can build my contract with it like I can build an image using a canvas library. initial_boilerplate() add_jurisdiction("England") add_involved_parties(foo, bar) etc

There are enterprise contract management systems that do this kind of stuff.

Re: Show HN: Crowdsourced freelance contract template, written in plain language

#34

Post by smacktoward »

rv-de wrote: post #20

What I don't get. And I suppose I am speaking here for 99% of all developers without a background in law. How can it be so difficult to create a contract framework? How can there possibly so many variations on that theme that you need a lawyer to do that? I do understand that there are circumstances where legal advice is necessary. But at least 90% of all freelance (and other) contracts should be coverable with a man…

How can it be so difficult to build a software application? How can there possibly be so many variations on that theme that you need a programmer to do that?

Re: Show HN: Crowdsourced freelance contract template, written in plain language

#35

Post by pnw_hazor »

ruairidhwm wrote: post #29
hiccuphippo wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if there could be a library of legal terms so I can build my contract with it like I can build an image using a canvas library. initial_boilerplate() add_jurisdiction("England") add_involved_parties(foo, bar) etc

I've been wanting to build a legal IDE for ages, it makes no sense that lawyers are stuck using Microsoft Word with lots of bolt-on plugins rather than a VSCode / Sublime equivalent.

There are tools. Enterprises use them.

Also, some small-scale practice areas like family law have form generator tools.

Re: Show HN: Crowdsourced freelance contract template, written in plain language

#36

Post by rv-de »

cooperadymas wrote: post #32
rv-de wrote: post #20

What I don't get. And I suppose I am speaking here for 99% of all developers without a background in law. How can it be so difficult to create a contract framework? How can there possibly so many variations on that theme that you need a lawyer to do that? I do understand that there are circumstances where legal advice is necessary. But at least 90% of all freelance (and other) contracts should be coverable with a man…

IANAL either, but if you go to a lawyer (as a freelancer/contractor) for a contract they're basically going to take one off the shelf and hand it to you. They might change one or two lines to be specific to the type of work you do, or run it through a couple if-else conditions that aren't relevant to everybody. But in the few times I've dealt with contracts the boilerplate percentage was well above your 90% mark.

good point - the 90% though was not referring to a single contract but overall the share of contracts that could be dealt with via a framework.

Re: Show HN: Crowdsourced freelance contract template, written in plain language

#37

Post by rv-de »

pnw_hazor wrote: post #30
rv-de wrote: post #20

What I don't get. And I suppose I am speaking here for 99% of all developers without a background in law. How can it be so difficult to create a contract framework? How can there possibly so many variations on that theme that you need a lawyer to do that? I do understand that there are circumstances where legal advice is necessary. But at least 90% of all freelance (and other) contracts should be coverable with a man…

Everything is easy when it is easy. Why do we even need written contracts? Isn't your word good enough? When things go sideways is when you need a legally sound contract. For example, if there was a dispute, every overbroad term in this contract will be fought over in court (this example has words like 'everything' and 'any reason' figuring out what these words mean in court will cost tens of thousands of dollars in…

But you are referring to the task description.

Re: Show HN: Crowdsourced freelance contract template, written in plain language

#38

Post by aiisahik »

folkrav wrote: post #5
aiisahik wrote: post #4

I love the idea behind this - so many contracts are unnecessarily impossible to read. However, I am going to be really honest - as the CTO of a company who regularly hires freelancers and as a former lawyer, I would never sign this contract if the freelancer I was using sent it to me. Section 2.1 is much too weak and will give the hiring company problems if they were undergoing diligence for an equity round. Please c…

> Section 2.1 is much too weak and will give the hiring company problems if they were undergoing diligence for an equity round. Please consult any IP lawyer if you doubt me. I'm honestly not doubting you, I just don't understand, not being really versed in legalese. What's that "diligence for an equity round" thing? How is "you own all the things" too weak legally speaking?

Diligence for an equity round = when lawyers who represent the investors go through all the documents of a company. If something looks bad, they will make the company and its attorneys fix it, incurring time and legal fees. This usually doesn't happen much in the seeds stage but will definitely happen in Series A and beyond. I used to do this for a living and if I saw something like this contract here I would probably tell the company to get it resigned from the contractor using a more comprehensive contract. The company would probably need to pay the contractor a small fee too to make sure the new contract was enforceable.

Re: Show HN: Crowdsourced freelance contract template, written in plain language

#39

Post by ticmasta »

lgleason wrote: post #31

This is definitely missing a lot of protections for both sides. An interesting story. I have a standard contract I usually use with startups etc. that is written to be fair to both parties and vetted by multiple attorneys. One that I worked with insisted that I use theirs. When I went through it, it was clear that they took it from a template and there were numerous holes in it that I pushed back on. They stated that…

>> Contract negotiations are often a sign of things to come with the rest of the engagement

I'd qualify this with "if the person(s) you will be work with are the sticklers for the contract."

Often contracting is just a line item for the manager that wants to get going and the legal rep is the one causing the delays. When this is the case I don't find the experience with the legal team has much bearing on the experience actually doing the work.

Re: Show HN: Crowdsourced freelance contract template, written in plain language

#40

Post by Tehchops »

ruairidhwm wrote: post #26

I've seen quite a few of these and whilst I love the idea, they usually have a ton of problems in them. As tptacek pointed out - there is no chance that this document would survive first contact with a sophisticated party and any qualified lawyer would likely rip this to shreds. Firstly there is no regard to the potential jurisdiction that the user chooses. If I were to put in England then that would mean there are d…

>Source: I'm a software engineer and a qualified lawyer

I imagine there is no shortage of demand for your cross-section of skills?

Do you utilize them both, or did you pivot from one to the other?

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