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Show HN: A decentralized social network with end-to-end encryption

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Re: Show HN: A decentralized social network with end-to-end encryption

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When you stop passive attacks, then attackers will just step up their game to active attacks. Not always. It often changes the economics of the game. Especially when facing mass surveillance, considering the potential risk of detectability. Just because some attackers can step up their game for some targets, it does not imply they will do the same for all targets. > If you want to call something secure... I don't d…

Sure, but consider this: Do you know what stops all passive attackers and most active attackers? TLS. Do you know what WebCrypto adds that TLS doesn't? Nothing. That's why this is useless. Just use TLS correctly and you're better off. Now, reframe this as "desktop application that uses libsodium in a protocol designed by cryptography engineer" and suddenly my interest is piqued.

> Do you know what WebCrypto adds that TLS doesn't? Nothing.

No, consider this: an end-to-end encrypted messaging web page delivered over TLS that stores keys in browser local storage. A passive attacker that can see the incoming traffic on the server but does not want to alter the JavaScript sent to the clients will never see the messages. I argue this is weak but not useless.

(I would argue all TLS encryption in the browser is, in a sense, opportunistic to a certain extent, since very rarely people look at the address bar, effectively making it unauthenticated.)

Re: Show HN: A decentralized social network with end-to-end encryption

#32
post #11

how is it different from diaspora?

It has end-to-end encrpytion - so if you are hosted on a friend's server for example, the friend can not read your messages, which might be useful :)

in that case, wouldn't it be better to focus on adding e2e to diaspora? or is there an architectural limitation with it? that seems a lot of redundant work at the moment.

Re: Show HN: A decentralized social network with end-to-end encryption

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. The web crypto api was indeed made to secure communications, such as stated by the W3C on http://www.w3.org/TR/WebCryptoAPI/ (...) "Uses for this API range from user or service authentication, document or code signing, and the confidentiality and integrity of communications. " 2. Yes, you are definetly right, an detailed audit of the protocol is necessary by more than one expert. 3. Here is a short description of…

> 1. The web crypto api was indeed made to secure communications, such as stated by the W3C on http://www.w3.org/TR/WebCryptoAPI/ (...) "Uses for this API range from user or service authentication, document or code signing, and the confidentiality and integrity of communications. " So they say. You'd be hard-pressed to find a cryptographer that likes Web Crypto. > 2. Yes, you are definetly right, an detailed audit of…

Even if he makes all those decisions correctly the system won't support forward secrecy.

Re: Show HN: A decentralized social network with end-to-end encryption

#35

I want this to work so much. So many people have tried this, and I have signed up for, or self-hosted, every single one of these things, and even convinced my friends to join a few. None of them ever take off. How is this different?

Yes, this. It seems like there are far more programmers creating back-end for this kind of thing than there are designers working on good concepts and front-ends.

I'd build it on top of WordPress as a plugin. Then most of the interface decisions are done, the community is already there, and installation takes about 3-4 clicks.

Re: Show HN: A decentralized social network with end-to-end encryption

#36
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like there would be a lot of uses for something like a jQuery for the WebCrypto API. There are enough ways to get it wrong, and enough commonality among 80% use cases, I can see something like this being better than the alternative.

WebCrypto is a potluck of popular cryptography standards, chosen by committee. What you want instead is a library that carefully selects primitives with an emphasis on: 1. Security 2. Performance 3. Ease of use You want a high-level API, like I'm building for PHP 7.1, not a low-level API, like openssl, mcrypt, WebCrypto, etc.

Yes just something that implements signatures and private messages in the best way web crypto allows for. Bonus points for encapsulating the best practices rather than just documenting the footguns.

Re: Show HN: A decentralized social network with end-to-end encryption

#37
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. The web crypto api was indeed made to secure communications, such as stated by the W3C on http://www.w3.org/TR/WebCryptoAPI/ (...) "Uses for this API range from user or service authentication, document or code signing, and the confidentiality and integrity of communications. " So they say. You'd be hard-pressed to find a cryptographer that likes Web Crypto. > 2. Yes, you are definetly right, an detailed audit of…

Even if he makes all those decisions correctly the system won't support forward secrecy.

Why do you think I separated crypto_sign() from crypto_box() in my description?

Re: Show HN: A decentralized social network with end-to-end encryption

#38
One main problem is that you have to make passwords recoverable. In real world message like "warring! we can't restore your key!" just doesn't work at all. People ignore it and still want you to recover their keys. Also forcing people to have password is also very vulnerable.

Re: Show HN: A decentralized social network with end-to-end encryption

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While it does not stop even the most basic active attackers You just admitted that it's useless! https://adamcaudill.com/2014/02/25/on-opportunistic-encrypti...

> You just admitted that it's useless! No, I do not believe stopping passive attacks is useless.

Systems that stop only "passive" attackers simply aren't cryptographically secure.

Re: Show HN: A decentralized social network with end-to-end encryption

#40
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You just admitted that it's useless! No, I do not believe stopping passive attacks is useless.

Systems that stop only "passive" attackers simply aren't cryptographically secure.

"Cryptographically secure" sounds like a vague thing you bring up here. To me, it sounds it is by definition secure (and cryptographically so, if they use cryptography) against passive attackers (and probably nothing else), but I am not really debating abstract and fuzzy definitions here.

My objection is very concrete: to say whatever uses JavaScript cryptography is as secure as TLS is false. Precisely, what it means is for all threat models imaginable, if you can somehow subvert TLS, you can always break the JavaScript crypto, and this is obviously false at least for one scenario I described in the other comment. We could reasonably debate the likelihood of the scenarios, but it's really hard to argue the mathematical equivalence of the two.

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