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Show HN: Report idling vehicles in NYC (and get a cut of the fines) with AI

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Re: Show HN: Report idling vehicles in NYC (and get a cut of the fines) with AI

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Compliance with the law is a separate issue from the contents of the law. Agree. More of my thought is what happens when everyone is incentivized with money to spy on everyone else? How can you misuse this as a government? How can unscrupulous businesses misuse this? >If switching to a fine-based bounty system like this suddenly causes an uproar over a given law, then I submit the proper thing is to look over that l…

> I would submit that there is the danger that people might want to keep a bad law if they continue to make money by snitching. In fact, money is the exact wrong incentive for this sort of thing. Think bigger. If the activity were really a money-maker, then it will inevitably be scaled and industrialized. A cottage industry of snitching would spring up. If that industry got sufficiently wealthy and politically powerf…

This is exactly the point, yes. You can get arbitrarily close to 100% crime detection rates with any law where there is a financial incentive for private entities to invest in this kind of infrastructure.

The example I like to use is littering. If I lived near a high traffic area, and there was a $200 fine, $100 payable to the first successful reporter, you'd better believe I would invest in some webcams and some software to do nothing but watch for signs of littering nearby 24/7, run the last 15 seconds through AI to weed out false positives, and maybe even file the report automatically on my behalf. That's almost literally money lying on the sidewalk.

At first I would probably make thousands with a $20 webcam and some manual review. Even one true positive pays for itself 5 times over. Eventually other people on my block would start doing a similar thing. The fine can only get paid to one person, usually the person who "gets there the fastest with the mostest". So then there is competitive pressure on me to make my software faster, my webcam higher resolution, my detection methods and ability to prove non-repudiation more reliable.

If you prefer walking through trash I can understand this may dismay you. If you like clean streets, I can think of no better chilling effect to anyone who might be crossing by. You can apply this enforcement mechanism to basically any kind of crime and get similar results - even and especially organized crime, which traditional legal enforcement historically has a very hard time breaking up. Hence why it's already in use by the SEC to break up the highest level of financial crimes, via things like the False Claims Act where often the only way to prove the crime is happening in the first place is to have a man on the inside why can patiently collect evidence for years before making his move. What better way to make something worth a man's time than to pay him?

Re: Show HN: Report idling vehicles in NYC (and get a cut of the fines) with AI

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have it backwards. A perfect detection rate for crime makes it much more important that we define conservatively what we even consider to be a crime in the first place, and then what kind of punishment we levy upon it. You also have it backwards because it already reliably makes society better for you. Take the case of Biogen employee Michael Bawduniak, who spent seven years documenting covert payments that steer…

That is entirely different type of crime. Do you let an AI write your comments?

My point is actually that the type of crime doesn't matter. If it's good enough to break up vast financial conspiracy networks, it's probably good enough for your bog standard aggravated assault cases or what have you, where people are a lot less skilled at avoiding detection.

Re: Show HN: Report idling vehicles in NYC (and get a cut of the fines) with AI

#273
post #267

[flagged]

This is becoming a cliche here on HN, to call laws and lawmakers stupid after reading a headline.

> I don't idle for fun, I do it to reduce wear and tear.

And this law isn't there for fun either.

> I'm also sure normies will recognise when a commercial vehicle is idling to maintain cargo cooling, to maintain hydraulics, etc...

Everybody is stupid but me!!!!! How tireing. Idling is allowed for running a piece of equipment.

Re: Show HN: Report idling vehicles in NYC (and get a cut of the fines) with AI

#274
post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>[P]eople might want to keep a bad law if they continue to make money by snitching. In fact, money is the exact wrong incentive for this sort of thing. I've said elsewhere the optimal mechanism here is for that money to be paid to the snitcher, from the person who is being turned in. This would lead us to assume that for most crimes of a personal nature, we would have about as many people losing money due to the law…

> See my other comments on eg the runaway success of the False Claims Act Could you link some examples of such comments because I can't find them, please? > Or just consider the class action lawsuit and whether you think it fills a valuable role in society. This is an odd one. They are extremely rare in the UK, but in practice I think we have better consumer protection because it's handled through ordinary politics a…

I had a discussion with gametorch about this topic where I mention the case of Biogen employee Michael Bawduniak. His comments got flagged, but I think he laid his assumptions and concern for the downstream effects on US culture bare, which is commendable. I'll cite some relevant news articles since finding the exact link is proving tough.

[1]: https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/biogen-inc-agrees-pa... " Biogen Inc. Agrees to Pay $900 Million to Settle Allegations Related to Improper Physician Payments"

[2]: https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/largest-ever-266-4-... "Largest-Ever $266.4 Million Whistleblower Award in Biogen False Claims Act Suit"

[3]: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-26/biogen-to... "Biogen Agrees to Pay $900 Million to Resolve Kickback Claims"

You can also find more official information on the SEC whistleblower program, which I think the False Claims Act itself is under but might just be a mirror similarity, at

[4]: https://www.sec.gov/enforcement-litigation/whistleblower-pro...

It's fascinating stuff.

Re: Show HN: Report idling vehicles in NYC (and get a cut of the fines) with AI

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the problem? Why is this the wrong kind of law enforcement?

Because it loses nuance. If it was a meat truck trying to maintain temperature of the items while being stuck in a delivery paper work - now potentially being fined for keeping the meat at right temp!

If you read a headline like this and you think to yourself "this is stupid, what if..." whatever you are thinking of has been, more than likely, covered. It just doesn't fit into the headline. As another poster already remarked, this is covered.

Re: Show HN: Report idling vehicles in NYC (and get a cut of the fines) with AI

#279
post #267

[flagged]

This is becoming a cliche here on HN, to call laws and lawmakers stupid after reading a headline. > I don't idle for fun, I do it to reduce wear and tear. And this law isn't there for fun either. > I'm also sure normies will recognise when a commercial vehicle is idling to maintain cargo cooling, to maintain hydraulics, etc... Everybody is stupid but me!!!!! How tireing. Idling is allowed for running a piece of equip…

> Everybody is stupid but me!!!!! How tireing. Idling is allowed for running a piece of equipment.

No. More so, along the lines of, random people should not be given financial incentives to regulate things they don't understand, especially not without a long checklist. A 2,01m video covers only the most basic thing.

> And this law isn't there for fun either.

Yeah, it's driven by the hippies who made OEMs write in manuals that you should immediately go after starting your car or bike. Scrape the cylinders real good while they're bone dry..

Re: Show HN: Report idling vehicles in NYC (and get a cut of the fines) with AI

#280

This is a phenomenal application of how fine-based bounties can be used to rapidly improve compliance with the law. Incredible work. I would absolutely use this if I lived in NYC; I'll recommend it to my friends there.

>This is a phenomenal application of how fine-based bounties can be used to rapidly improve compliance with the law. This type of thing can get out of hand quickly. Without me giving controversial examples, just imagine for yourself the types of things that different states can make a crime, add a fine, then offer to give other citizens part or all of that fine if they turn in others. After that, think of how unscrup…

I think an important wake-up call is that bounties now exist in an ecosystem where people who would normally be indifferent to wanting/knowing how to collect bounties, could be driven by techniques from the predatory-gambling-app world into becoming gamified enforcers.

We’re already sliding down the slope, to be sure, but this is an acceleration that we should expect with our eyes wide open.

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