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Show HN: Meteor, a realtime JavaScript framework

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Re: Show HN: Meteor, a realtime JavaScript framework

#251

Post by clintjhill »

micheljansen wrote: post #208

My first impression of this: wow. If Meteor is all it appears to be, this is nothing short of revolutionary. My second reaction: what happens when the magic ends? When I was new to Rails, I really loved how easy it was to get started with scaffolding, a nice DSL for specifying relations, nifty form helpers. However, the first time I veered a little off the golden path and wanted to do something a little more complica…

Another part about this kind of magic IMO is that it requires you to start from the ground up within this system. Otherwise the magic is either not doable or very hard. I know it's a tired argument but it's a reality - enterprise will have a hard time reaching for this kind of thing because it's so full-stack. Not easily separated without breaking all the magic. Maybe I've missed something about it, but it appears this way.

Re: Show HN: Meteor, a realtime JavaScript framework

#252

Post by fooooobar »

jeromeparadis wrote: post #238
grannyg00se wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to see some additional detail on this particular idea: "In Meteor, your server code runs in a single thread per request, not in the asynchronous callback style typical of Node. " Seems one of Node's primary style advantages (async non-blocking style) has been eschewed.

I wonder what's the performance hit of having a thread per request. I liked everything I say, but yes, having a single threaded node removes a lot of overhead.

Can you cite any non-trivial benchmark of this?

Re: Show HN: Meteor, a realtime JavaScript framework

#253

Post by zavulon »

dspillett wrote: post #242
zavulon wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love everything about Meteor so far, except for this. This is no way to answer such an important question that most potential users will have - let's face it, there's a lot of people who will want to use this for open source, but a lot more who will want to use this for commercial apps. To ensure Meteor's wide-spread acceptance, you need to clearly answer this question on FAQ page, and not with "we need to have a c…

A great many things are sold this way, and it is sometimes unavoidable. Commercial projects tend to have a wide range of requirements from a licensing point of view so if they spent time drawing up a full commercial license they would end up having to rearrange half or more of it for the first commercial client that came along anyway. They could spend time drawing up many license templates (world wide, X,000 users, X…

Fair enough - if that's their choice, that's totally understandable. But my point is - if they wish to make it a wide-spread popular platform for web development, this is not the way to go about it. An MIT license like Rails would be a much better choice.

Re: Show HN: Meteor, a realtime JavaScript framework

#254

Post by XLcommerce »

DougBTX wrote: post #227
XLcommerce wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such a great question. I spent a lot of time working with ExtJS having been lured in by all those great, straight out of the box components which had their own healthy dose of added magic. Fast forward a year or two and suddenly when I need to do anything that is non standard then reality kicks in. I now need to buy-in to the entire (framework) mindset to progress which slows things down (because it doesn't necessari…

> I now need to buy-in to the entire (framework) mindset to progress which slows things down That's interesting, that idea could be folded into the technical debt metaphor. So, by taking on a library or framework, I get a head start by just using it, but take on the knowledge-debt of not really knowing how it works. And when you get to the edge of what it can do, you either pay off the knowledge debt by learning how…

Yeah, said much better than I could. I don't regret any of the time spent with these frameworks because it really broadens your horizons and makes you think in new ways. Lots of the techniques I've seen now make regular appearances in the versions I roll myself. Other ideas I've completely rejected. Eg. ORMs. A few years ago they seemed like a godsend. In reality they simply shielded me from the basics of SQL and were inflexible black boxes.

Re: Show HN: Meteor, a realtime JavaScript framework

#255

Post by dreamdu5t »

javert wrote: post #127

Can't people find an alternative to the world "realtime" that hasn't already been used for 30 years to mean something entirely different? (As in, real-time systems, real-time operating systems, etc.) I'm not trying to put down Meteor, I imagine it's great.

Agreed. I prefer the term "auto-synchronizing" rather than "real-time."

Re: Show HN: Meteor, a realtime JavaScript framework

#256

Post by ionforce »

mmobile wrote: post #237
micheljansen wrote: post #208

My first impression of this: wow. If Meteor is all it appears to be, this is nothing short of revolutionary. My second reaction: what happens when the magic ends? When I was new to Rails, I really loved how easy it was to get started with scaffolding, a nice DSL for specifying relations, nifty form helpers. However, the first time I veered a little off the golden path and wanted to do something a little more complica…

Like the reference to Rails—so easy and at the same time so inaccessible. In the earlier days without powerful frameworks I was really developing: figuring out which pattern/algorithm did the best job. Nowadays when working with frameworks I feel dumber and dumber—before thinking myself I just google API calls and put them together. I am not trying anymore because I don't know where to start and everything is already…

Define "real programming".

Re: Show HN: Meteor, a realtime JavaScript framework

#257

Post by kragen »

Lazare wrote: post #207
equark wrote: post #34

Is GPL really viable for a web framework? The Free Software Foundation has consistently held that linking to GPL code (not LGPL) is derived work.

It depends what the Meteor team has in mind. If they want this to be the next Django/Rails/Express/whatever, where a large and enthusiastic community both uses and develops the product then the answer is fairly clear: No, this is not a suitable license. If their idea is that it's an nominally open source project where all control and most development takes place inside the originating company, and the community mostl…

In the twenty-five or so years of the free-software movement, we've built the Internet and the World-Wide Web; made the Encyclopedia Britannica obsolete by producing something dramatically better; built history's most portable operating system, which now runs everything from most smartphones to most supercomputers, with contributions from hundreds of companies, including its biggest competitors, IBM and Microsoft.

But even after twenty-five years, there are still people who think they have to make a code base proprietary to make money on it.

I'm horrified.

What do you think will happen if you toss together a contacts manager or to-do list app and charge a monthly fee, and give out all the code, just as the Meteor devs have given out all their code to you? Maybe some of your users will decide to run the app on their own server and stop paying you. Or try to compete with you. But probably most of them will want to use the site operated by the app's primary developer. And all of your would-be competitors are just free R&D increasing the value of your site.

What's so terrible about making web apps that are free software?

Re: Show HN: Meteor, a realtime JavaScript framework

#259

Post by cristiantincu »

micheljansen wrote: post #208

My first impression of this: wow. If Meteor is all it appears to be, this is nothing short of revolutionary. My second reaction: what happens when the magic ends? When I was new to Rails, I really loved how easy it was to get started with scaffolding, a nice DSL for specifying relations, nifty form helpers. However, the first time I veered a little off the golden path and wanted to do something a little more complica…

“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” —Arthur C. Clarke.

For an user of a product/service, this is bliss. For a hacker, it might get tricky. Now, considering the fact that this is all open source, the huge wall you’re talking about is just a matter of perception. You’re free to debug and go with it as low level as you need.

Re: Show HN: Meteor, a realtime JavaScript framework

#260

Post by gotrythis »

OzzyB wrote: post #80
geoffschmidt wrote: post #2

Hey everyone! The four of us have been working very hard on this for the last six months, and we're excited to finally take the wraps off. Can't wait to hear what you think! We've got a lot more stuff coming over the next few months, and if there are particular things you'd like us to do/prioritize, I'd love to hear about them!

Well, no one has mentioned anything about the awesome domain yet, so I guess I'll have to -- meteor.com -- great domain guys :)

Meteor is a horrible name for a programming language. Meteor's crash and burn! lol.
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