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Show HN: NanoClaw – “Clawdbot” in 500 lines of TS with Apple container isolation

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Re: Show HN: NanoClaw – “Clawdbot” in 500 lines of TS with Apple container isolation

#201

Post by scubbo »

frizlab wrote: post #184
enraged_camel wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Yeah. Exactly the same as there should never be an “artisan era” for chairs, tables, buildings, etc. That's funny you bring up those examples, because they have all moved on to the mass manufacturing era. You can still get artisan quality stuff but it typically costs a lot more and there's a lot less of it. Which is why mass-manufacturing won. Same is going to happen with software. LLMs are just the beginning.

Oh no, but I know! And it is indeed terrible. I live in a city where there are new houses being built. They are ugly. Meanwhile, the ones that exist since a long time ago have charm and feel homely. I don’t know, I‘m probably just a regular old man yelling at clouds, but I still think we’re going in the wrong direction. For pretty much everything. And for what? Money. Yay! Hugh.

You're continuing to make good arguments for why mass-production should exist _alongside_ artisanal craftsmanship. Broad availability of housing which is functional, albeit of questionable aesthetic appeal, is a good thing to improve housing availability[0]; and also it is a good thing for (fewer) well-built, charming, individual homes to be available for those who want to spend more and to get more.

[0] I'm extremely aware that there are other contributing factors to housing shortages. Tax Billionaires, etc. My metaphor still works despite not being total.

Re: Show HN: NanoClaw – “Clawdbot” in 500 lines of TS with Apple container isolation

#202

Post by ModernMech »

_zoltan_ wrote: post #106
nialse wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

”I don't care deeply about this code. It's not a masterpiece. It's functional code that is very useful to me.” - AI software engineering in a nutshell. Leaving the human artisan era of code behind. Function over form. Substance over style. Getting stuff done.

There should never have been an "artisan era". We use computers to solve problems. You should have always getting stuff done instead of bikeshedding over nitty-gritty details, like when in the office people have been spending weeks on optimizing code... just to have the exact same output, exact same time, but now "nicer". You get paid to get stuff done, period.

You use computers to solve problems. I use computers to communicate and create art. For me, the code I write is first and foremost a form of self expression. No one paid me to write 99% of the code I've written in my life.

For a long time computers were so expensive they could only be used to do things that generate enough money to justify their purchase. But those days are long gone so computers are for much much more than just solving problems and getting stuff done. Code can be beautiful in its own right.

Re: Show HN: NanoClaw – “Clawdbot” in 500 lines of TS with Apple container isolation

#203

Post by ModernMech »

lxgr wrote: post #155
mchaver wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There should never have been an "artisan era". Firm no. There should be and there will continue to be. Maybe for you all code is business/money-making code, but that is not true for everyone. > We use computers to solve problems. We can use computers for lots of things like having fun, making art, and even creating problems for other people. > You get paid to get stuff done, period. That is a strange assumption. Pl…

I think you're both right. There's a time and place for beautifully crafted code, but there's also a place for a hot mess that barely passes its own non-existing tests, and for anything in between. Just don't bring an artisan to a slop fight.

> there's also a place for a hot mess that barely passes its own non-existing tests

For a long time that place has been "the commercial software marketplace". Let's all stop pretending that the code coming out of shops until now has been something you'd find at a guild craft expo. It's always been a ball of spit and duct tape, which is why AI code is often spit and duct tape.

Re: Show HN: NanoClaw – “Clawdbot” in 500 lines of TS with Apple container isolation

#204

Post by falcor84 »

frizlab wrote: post #119
_zoltan_ wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There should never have been an "artisan era". We use computers to solve problems. You should have always getting stuff done instead of bikeshedding over nitty-gritty details, like when in the office people have been spending weeks on optimizing code... just to have the exact same output, exact same time, but now "nicer". You get paid to get stuff done, period.

Yeah. Exactly the same as there should never be an “artisan era” for chairs, tables, buildings, etc. Hell even art! Why should art even be a thing? We are machine driven by neurons, feelings do not exist. Might be your life, it ain’t mine. I’m an artisan of code, and I’m proud to be one. I might finally use AI one of these days at work because I’ll have to, but I’ll never stop cherishing doing hand-crafted code.

The difference is that end users don't interact with the code that the artisan created, and don't care what it "feels like". One type of code that I do agree should be artisanal is the interface end of libraries.

Re: Show HN: NanoClaw – “Clawdbot” in 500 lines of TS with Apple container isolation

#205

Post by jimminyx »

pulkas wrote: post #188

This violates the Claude Code subscription terms of service, so please be careful. This project violates Claude Code's Terms of Service by automating Claude to create an unattended chatbot service that responds to third-party messaging platforms (WhatsApp, and what you add ...). The exact issues: 1. Automated, unattended usage - The system runs as a background service (launchd) that automatically responds to WhatsApp…

Interesting. Again, not a lawyer, but all of this is a bit murky and not sure it applies.

1. Usage is not automated and unattended - it only responds to messages that are sent to it with a specific prefix "Andy:"

2. This is not a bot service. It is not crawling twitter and responding to posts. Hard to see how sending it messages through WhatsApp is any different than through ssh via the terminal

3. I don't think a custom piece of software running on my computer that pipes data from a program into the Agents SDK is a third party "platform" integration.

How is this different from running Agents SDK as part of a CI process?

Re: Show HN: NanoClaw – “Clawdbot” in 500 lines of TS with Apple container isolation

#206

Post by pixl97 »

charcircuit wrote: post #117
naruhodo wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employees are humans and therefore subject to the law. There are remedies. And you can point a camera at the cash register. Who are you going to arrest and/or sue when you run a chat bot "at your own risk" and it shoots you in the foot?

If your chatbot provided you 1.5 feet worth of value before shooting your foot it may have been worth it. The optimal self damage to maximize total value may be non 0.

>The optimal self damage to maximize total value may be non 0.

This is the calculus that large companies use all the time when committing acts that are 'most likely' illegal. While they may be fined million of dollars they at least believe they'll make 10s to 100s of millions on said action.

Now, for you as an individual things are far more risky.

You don't have a nest of heathen lawyers to keep you out of trouble.

You can't bully nation states, government entities, or even other large companies.

You individually may be held civilly or criminally liable if things go bad enough.

Re: Show HN: NanoClaw – “Clawdbot” in 500 lines of TS with Apple container isolation

#207

Post by mikkupikku »

falcor84 wrote: post #204
frizlab wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. Exactly the same as there should never be an “artisan era” for chairs, tables, buildings, etc. Hell even art! Why should art even be a thing? We are machine driven by neurons, feelings do not exist. Might be your life, it ain’t mine. I’m an artisan of code, and I’m proud to be one. I might finally use AI one of these days at work because I’ll have to, but I’ll never stop cherishing doing hand-crafted code.

The difference is that end users don't interact with the code that the artisan created, and don't care what it "feels like". One type of code that I do agree should be artisanal is the interface end of libraries.

Yes, it's like artisanal plumbing or electrical wiring... all hidden behind walls. A plumber might take pride in the quality of his soldered joints, but artisanal? Who wants to pay for that?

Re: Show HN: NanoClaw – “Clawdbot” in 500 lines of TS with Apple container isolation

#208

Post by mikkupikku »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #181
satvikpendem wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think they hate their job, just seem to be frustrated at slow bureaucratic processes and long code reviews which I've experienced too. After a while it can get aggravating as to why some people want to nitpick minute details of the code which slows down development overall. I am talking about cases where the initially submitted PR is perfectly fine, not grossly incorrect.

Oh wow, if we're talking about code reviews that's a different topic. I've never, FWIW, encountered "artisans" in code reviews. More like "that's not how I would have coded itsans" and "let me show you some new tricksans". Yeah, to hell with code reviews. The best years of my career were when I was given carte blanche control over an entire framework, etc. When code reviews came along coding at work sucked. If anythi…

90% of the CRs I've ever gotten have been "artisanal" just because nitpicking superficial nonsense is easier than meaningful critique, and even when the code is perfectly fine it looks more productive from a managers perspective if you're nitpicking a function name than if you just respond with lgtm.

Re: Show HN: NanoClaw – “Clawdbot” in 500 lines of TS with Apple container isolation

#209

Post by overgard »

sothatsit wrote: post #76
overgard wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I've read, every major AI player is losing a (lot) of money on running LLMs, even just with inference. It's hard to say for sure because they don't publish the financials (or if they do, it tends to be obfuscated), but if the screws start being turned on investment dollars they not only have to increase the price of their current offerings (2x cost wouldn't shock me), but some of them also need a (massive)…

Dario Amodei has said that their models actually have a good return, even when accounting for training costs [0]. They lose money because of R&D, training the next bigger models, and I assume also investment in other areas like data centers. Sam Altman has made similar statements, and Chinese companies also often serve their models very cheaply. All of this makes me believe them when they say they are profitable on A…

> Sam Altman has made similar statements, and Chinese companies also often serve their models very cheaply.

Sam Altman got fired by his own board for dishonesty, and a lot of the original OpenAI people have left. I don't know the guy, but given his track record I'm not sure I'd just take his word for it.

As for chinese models..: https://www.wheresyoured.at/the-enshittifinancial-crisis/#th...

From the article:

> You’re probably gonna say at this point that Anthropic or OpenAI might go public, which will infuse capital into the system, and I want to give you a preview of what to look forward to, courtesy of AI labs MiniMax and Zhipu (as reported by The Information), which just filed to go public in Hong Kong.

> Anyway, I’m sure these numbers are great-oh my GOD!

> In the first half of this year, Zhipu had a net loss of $334 million on $27 million in revenue, and guess what, 85% of that revenue came from enterprise customers. Meanwhile, MiniMax made $53.4 million in revenue in the first nine months of the year, and burned $211 million to earn it.

Re: Show HN: NanoClaw – “Clawdbot” in 500 lines of TS with Apple container isolation

#210

Post by mathfailure »

deadbabe wrote: post #197

To those who complain about these bots and the security concerns they raise, you basically have two options: 1. You can live in the future, and be at the bleeding edge of the latest AI tech, reaping the benefits. Be part of the solution. 2. You can stay in the past and get left behind, at the mercy of those who took the risks.

The 2. Thank you.
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