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Show HN: Report idling vehicles in NYC (and get a cut of the fines) with AI

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Re: Show HN: Report idling vehicles in NYC (and get a cut of the fines) with AI

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>[P]eople might want to keep a bad law if they continue to make money by snitching. In fact, money is the exact wrong incentive for this sort of thing. I've said elsewhere the optimal mechanism here is for that money to be paid to the snitcher, from the person who is being turned in. This would lead us to assume that for most crimes of a personal nature, we would have about as many people losing money due to the law…

>I've said elsewhere the optimal mechanism here is for that money to be paid to the snitcher, from the person who is being turned in. In some cases, which seem like a good idea like corporate malfeasance whistleblowers or government grift whistleblowers. This is because the people paid by our tax dollars would be at a disadvantage compared to an insider in the company. In others, you could see the direction it must g…

Re/ the speed limit, I'm afraid I simply don't understand. Why not just raise the speed limit to 70 instead of having everyone lie? If everyone starts then doing 75, why not raise it again? Eventually you'll hit a breakeven point. Considering that most highway accidents happen because two people disagree about the speed they should be driving at, and considering that fatalities and accident severity in such accidents scales with something crazy like the square or even the cube of the speed you're going at, this actually feels like the worst possible way to negotiate that.

Conversely, under an enforcement regime where everyone is genuinely scared to go higher than 65, the worst case scenario is... Everyone does 65. Fewer accidents, and fewer fatalities from those accidents. Best case scenario is they rapidly revise up to 70 - 75 - wherever.

Re/ "imagine that a bad law could effect a relatively small group much more than others", I think we would have to define more closely what a 'bad law' actually is to answer that first. Under this kind of fine-based regime, it would have to be something that targets a small group, unfairly, and manages to consistently extract a lot of money from them, which requires they have a lot of money to reliably extract in the first place - otherwise it stops being worth the effort to target them specifically.

I guess you could imagine making lottery scratch tickets a fineable offense, and thereby target pensioners unfairly. That's the closest I got after 5 minutes of thinking about it.

Re/ using money to incentivize public action - we have clashing moral intuitions on this, I definitely don't see it as a last resort. In fact I would far prefer it to be the first resort. Money is a much more efficient, scalable, precise, and robust way of handling things than e.g. sending people to prison (which we still have to pay for, by the way, prisons aren't cheap).

Re/ the idler's law itself - You're allowed to be against it personally, that's fine. The people of New York City voted in favor of it, and they probably have good reasons for this that mostly only make sense to themselves. Personally, I've been to New York, and seen how cramped those streets are. It doesn't surprise me that some schmuck holding up half of 6th Avenue should be made to pay for it - they are likely causing thousands of dollars of cash flow loss per second because on who's late for work because of them. But even then, I don't live there. I don't actually have a good sense of this kind of thing. I defer to the wisdom of the locals here. Do as the Romans do.

Re: Show HN: Report idling vehicles in NYC (and get a cut of the fines) with AI

#202
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It used to be that as long as the vehicle was on the same block as a school or park, you only had to take a one-minute video (versus three-minute). Now there are some annoying documentation requirements if you want to submit a shorter video. Doesn’t impact the overall usefulness of the program very much IMO — I just didn’t add special handling for school/park reports like I would’ve before they made that change.

Presumably they don't want you taking videos of people who aren't in fact breaking the law and profiting from tickets. NYC regulation requires you to not idle more than 5 minutes. https://dec.ny.gov/environmental-protection/air-quality/cont... Although they don't require you to actually take a 5 minute video it is overwhelmingly likely that most people don't pull out there phone every time a vehicle stops in NYC so t…

New York City has different rules from New York State, and commercial vehicles have different rules from personal vehicles. The limit for commercial vehicles in NYC is three minutes, or one minute when adjacent to a park/school: https://www.nyc.gov/site/dep/environment/idling-citizens-air...

Re: Show HN: Report idling vehicles in NYC (and get a cut of the fines) with AI

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> you are mad at not being able to poison the air of children lol you know you're the one acting in bad faith here. hope you feel better soon

[flagged]

Re: Show HN: Report idling vehicles in NYC (and get a cut of the fines) with AI

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I've said elsewhere the optimal mechanism here is for that money to be paid to the snitcher, from the person who is being turned in. In some cases, which seem like a good idea like corporate malfeasance whistleblowers or government grift whistleblowers. This is because the people paid by our tax dollars would be at a disadvantage compared to an insider in the company. In others, you could see the direction it must g…

Re/ the speed limit, I'm afraid I simply don't understand. Why not just raise the speed limit to 70 instead of having everyone lie? If everyone starts then doing 75, why not raise it again? Eventually you'll hit a breakeven point. Considering that most highway accidents happen because two people disagree about the speed they should be driving at, and considering that fatalities and accident severity in such accidents…

>Re/ the speed limit, I'm afraid I simply don't understand. Why not just raise the speed limit to 70 instead of having everyone lie?

Then do you arrest all people going 71?

> I think we would have to define more closely what a 'bad law' actually is to answer that first. Under this kind of fine-based regime, it would have to be something that targets a small group, unfairly, and manages to consistently extract a lot of money from them

Is suspect everyone can hypothesize a small group they belong to. So make up one that you belong to and imagine a group coming into power in the legislature where you live that makes that kind of law. The money itself doesn't need to be a large amount (what might be "a lot" to you and I might be different for different people) to make it oppressive and frankly a weapon for the police and government to use.

>Re/ the idler's law itself ... The people of New York City voted in favor of it

Correct. I don't agree with it but the local people do. This is the both the blessing and curse of our government and the exact situation where some people can can use this pay-for-snitching technique for good or bad. If it works for them then so be it. I don't have to like it. I don't like a lot of stuff. And some stuff I do like others don't. My original argument is that using money as an incentive to turn citizens against each other is a very slippery slope. In his case it might be great for them. I understand that you and I disagree on this point and there is likely nothing I can say or you can say to make the other suddenly change position and I respect you defending your thought process on this. But it is nice to be able to have a conversation about something controversial without it spinning into something else. Cheers!

Re: Show HN: Report idling vehicles in NYC (and get a cut of the fines) with AI

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compliance with the law is a separate issue from the contents of the law. If switching to a fine-based bounty system like this suddenly causes an uproar over a given law, then I submit the proper thing is to look over that law and perhaps tear it down. Any "law" that people put up with because it isn't enforced 9 times out of 10 is little more than a tax upon those too honest to get away with it. As for businesses us…

>Compliance with the law is a separate issue from the contents of the law. Agree. More of my thought is what happens when everyone is incentivized with money to spy on everyone else? How can you misuse this as a government? How can unscrupulous businesses misuse this? >If switching to a fine-based bounty system like this suddenly causes an uproar over a given law, then I submit the proper thing is to look over that l…

> I would submit that there is the danger that people might want to keep a bad law if they continue to make money by snitching. In fact, money is the exact wrong incentive for this sort of thing.

Think bigger. If the activity were really a money-maker, then it will inevitably be scaled and industrialized. A cottage industry of snitching would spring up. If that industry got sufficiently wealthy and politically powerful, we'd see all kinds of "easy-bounty" laws getting enacted to allow these companies to further sponge up fines from the public.

If speeding fines were shared with whoever reported them, I guarantee 100% that companies would buy real estate every 10 miles along every freeway and put up speeding cameras to automate it.

(EDIT: Looks like you also already predicted the speed trap cottage industry in another comment. Oh, well, I'll leave this one up too)

Re: Show HN: Report idling vehicles in NYC (and get a cut of the fines) with AI

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't understand why anyone would want this Do you really want to live in a society where we're monitored for even the slightest infractions at all times and automatically punished regardless of any circumstances that might explain the behavior?

I would like to live in a society where everyone is strictly following traffic regulations. Almost every rule there is written with someone's blood. Also basics driving rules like zip merge will make traffic better.

Me too!

But I also recognize that people are human and make mistakes. I've missed turns before and had to make a decision between a slightly risky u-turn or being stuck going the wrong way for a while. I chose the u-turn after doing my best to ensure I wasn't going to put anyone else at risk

Should I be fined for that?

How about speeding? Basically everyone speeds right? Let's just auto fine everyone for that all the time.

Re: Show HN: Report idling vehicles in NYC (and get a cut of the fines) with AI

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't understand why anyone would want this Do you really want to live in a society where we're monitored for even the slightest infractions at all times and automatically punished regardless of any circumstances that might explain the behavior?

I get your take and agree with the sentiment BUT I don't think this somehow requires "automatic punishment". Also, if the laws are there then I tend to think they should be enforced. Maybe this kind of thing will empower places to drop some of the laws most folks agree are "slightest infractions".

This sounds reasonable but I think it's a bit optimistic

I don't think "increased government ability to enforce rules and collect fines" is likely to lead to less rules

I would love to be proven wrong

Re: Show HN: Report idling vehicles in NYC (and get a cut of the fines) with AI

#209
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some countries are already doing this, for example Vietnam and China. I recall reading about it years ago because some enterprising individuals decided that the revenue from catching random violations in-the-wild wasn't enough, so they started to deliberately create dangerous situations, where breaking a traffic law (which would then be recorded and submitted for a reward) was the only safe option for the victim. Unf…

This is why optimal policy design has the fines get paid directly from the violator to the reporter. That brings its own quirks, but they're all surprisingly tractable with other market mechanisms. There's a whole literature on this topic in economics under mechanism design. They've been a longstanding research interest of mine, I consider it almost like the land value tax of legal enforcement by this point.

>This is why optimal policy design has the fines get paid directly from the violator to the reporter.

Absolutely. And make sure to give the violator full contact details for the person(s) who reported them. Better yet, set up sites in isolated areas for the violators to "pay" the reporters.

What could go wrong?

Re: Show HN: Report idling vehicles in NYC (and get a cut of the fines) with AI

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't understand why anyone would want this Do you really want to live in a society where we're monitored for even the slightest infractions at all times and automatically punished regardless of any circumstances that might explain the behavior?

New York City doesn't do this for "even the slightest infractions at all times". The idling regulations are based on real harm, and the reporting requirements include things like recording video to prove that the car you're reporting didn't start idling in the last 5 seconds, but has, in fact, been doing that for 3 minutes or longer, or 1 minute or longer adjacent to a school. More info here: https://www.nyc.gov/site…

> And, yes, I would really, really want to live in a society where unnecessary idling is not allowed

I would really, really want to live in a society where we aren't being monitored by cameras for every single minute of every day the moment we step outside our homes

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