Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign • Hacker News Board

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#21

Post by toomuchtodo » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 9:49 PM UTC

alexopensource wrote: post #20

candiddevmike wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK DocuSign acts as a trusted third party and protects/prove chain of custody. Think of them like a digital notary public.

Our understanding is that DocuSign does not have any legal authority, they prove the chain of custody/modifications using digital traces which our solution can also do, arguably in a more open way.

Electronic signatures legally recognized in the United States are provided for in the Electronic Signatures in Global and National Commerce Act (“ESIGN”) and state and territory versions of the Uniform Electronic Transactions Act (“UETA”).

These are the regulations you’ll want to adhere to in order to provide parity with digital signature authority of traditional commercial providers (in the US at least).

Great work btw!

(Not an attorney, not your attorney, but happy to chip in fiat so you can consult with counsel and obtain an opinion letter from one in support of your project)

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#22

Post by d3w4s9 » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 9:52 PM UTC

alexopensource wrote: post #12

baz00 wrote: post #8

This is naïve. DocuSign's main sell from a commercial perspective is it separates the parties into the signer, the signee and the authority. If the authority is the signee or the signer then it could be considered unfair. And really no one wants to end up having to hire lawyers to unfuck that mess. Not only that DocuSign does ID verification if you pay them which is required for a bunch of contract types. This does d…

We are working on all these features, even an optional webcam capture during signing. This is just the beginning. Even with current features we are arguably the most complete solution in this space in open-source world.

No business cares about whether it is open-source or not. They care about when things somehow end up in the court, there is clear understanding of a signed document and nobody has any question about it. More or less a guarantee -- probably not really a guarantee but good enough to hold in court. If your selling point is open source or "free" you have already lost.

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#23

Post by alexopensource » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 9:55 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #21

alexopensource wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our understanding is that DocuSign does not have any legal authority, they prove the chain of custody/modifications using digital traces which our solution can also do, arguably in a more open way.

Electronic signatures legally recognized in the United States are provided for in the Electronic Signatures in Global and National Commerce Act (“ESIGN”) and state and territory versions of the Uniform Electronic Transactions Act (“UETA”). These are the regulations you’ll want to adhere to in order to provide parity with digital signature authority of traditional commercial providers (in the US at least). Great work…

Saved the info in my notes. Will discuss it with our counsel in the next meeting. Thanks :)

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#24

Post by yborg » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 9:56 PM UTC

baz00 wrote: post #17

alexopensource wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are working on all these features, even an optional webcam capture during signing. This is just the beginning. Even with current features we are arguably the most complete solution in this space in open-source world.

I appreciate what you're doing but we buy DocuSign so the problem is far far away from us. This turns it into a problem we have to manage ourselves or a problem of finding a vendor stable enough to host your stuff that will make it not our problem long enough for the longest contract retention to expire. Which is difficult.

I'm sure these problems were also difficult for DocuSign in the beginning.

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#25

Post by szundi » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 9:57 PM UTC

alexopensource wrote: post #11

wrs wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DocuSign itself just refers you to your own counsel for legal advice, but does publish and update a handy multi-country legal reference. For the US one, at least, they give examples of where electronic signatures are pretty common and straightforward, and where you need to be careful. Software-wise, they have features to help you show evidence of who signed, where, and when in multiple ways. Nothing magical, though.…

We also generate a completion certificate that has the time & ip addresses of everyone who accessed and modified a doc during the entire signing process, plus we are open source which means more transparent. We plan to publish a lot of content in that space but with limited resources currently we plan to build the product features first. Also, we are soon going to start our fund raise efforts which will ultimately sp…

And soon after suddenly the Pricing page appears, after 3 months of disappointment convenient features turn paying ones. In some more years it is just as expensive as Docusign.

Eh sorry, I’m just sad about Rocket Chat.

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#26

Post by alexopensource » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 10:01 PM UTC

d3w4s9 wrote: post #22

alexopensource wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are working on all these features, even an optional webcam capture during signing. This is just the beginning. Even with current features we are arguably the most complete solution in this space in open-source world.

No business cares about whether it is open-source or not. They care about when things somehow end up in the court, there is clear understanding of a signed document and nobody has any question about it. More or less a guarantee -- probably not really a guarantee but good enough to hold in court. If your selling point is open source or "free" you have already lost.

We take pride in being open source as we are sure being open source brings a lot more transparency in the entire process. When it comes to the authenticity of a signed document, the cryptographic proofs generated by our solution and digital traces are no different than those generated by DocuSign. It will hold equally true in any court. We understand that we might need some time to be universally acceptable in terms of the perception of the people, but we are confident that we will reach there.

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#27

Post by baz00 » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 10:07 PM UTC

yborg wrote: post #24

baz00 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate what you're doing but we buy DocuSign so the problem is far far away from us. This turns it into a problem we have to manage ourselves or a problem of finding a vendor stable enough to host your stuff that will make it not our problem long enough for the longest contract retention to expire. Which is difficult.

I'm sure these problems were also difficult for DocuSign in the beginning.

Not really. They actually ran mock trials with legal professionals as test cases. That was an instant win for anyone wanting assurance of admissibility.

No open source startup is going to win there because it's about entities and process, supported by technology not technology on its own. The technology is absolutely worthless without the framework and legal entities surrounding it. It's a unique position no one really understands that well.

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#28

Post by alexopensource » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 10:07 PM UTC

baz00 wrote: post #17

alexopensource wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are working on all these features, even an optional webcam capture during signing. This is just the beginning. Even with current features we are arguably the most complete solution in this space in open-source world.

I appreciate what you're doing but we buy DocuSign so the problem is far far away from us. This turns it into a problem we have to manage ourselves or a problem of finding a vendor stable enough to host your stuff that will make it not our problem long enough for the longest contract retention to expire. Which is difficult.

That is a great input, we need to put efforts into ensuring that we are seen as a long term player, in-fact we envision to be one, assuming some contracts might be really long term. I hope a day comes when you trust us enough :)

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#29

Post by p_l » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 10:10 PM UTC

jjeaff wrote: post #6

yodon wrote: post #2

My understanding (possibly incorrect) is that competing with DocuSign is hard because of the need to follow obscure state and National laws (many of which are defined by case law rather than published law) in order for the signatures to be legally binding. Is that the case? And if so, is there evidence OpenSign has done this kind of SME research to make sure the electronic signatures are legally binding, or is this m…

Are there really any laws requiring special types of signatures? Because I've never had a legal doc sent to me that they weren't fine with just stamping my signature on the line or even printing it out, signing it, and scanning it back in.

European Union (and some states connecting with the same infrastructure, like Switzerland), have standardized formats as well as defined CAs that provide certificates for "qualified" signatures, which have the same legal weight as if you had a printed document with physical signature.

DocuSign supports those mainly through some interop connections where, for example, a qualified signature vendor provides an API that DocuSign can use to sign the document.

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#30

Post by alexopensource » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 10:10 PM UTC

szundi wrote: post #25

alexopensource wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We also generate a completion certificate that has the time & ip addresses of everyone who accessed and modified a doc during the entire signing process, plus we are open source which means more transparent. We plan to publish a lot of content in that space but with limited resources currently we plan to build the product features first. Also, we are soon going to start our fund raise efforts which will ultimately sp…

And soon after suddenly the Pricing page appears, after 3 months of disappointment convenient features turn paying ones. In some more years it is just as expensive as Docusign. Eh sorry, I’m just sad about Rocket Chat.

The self hosted version will always be free :)