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Show HN: Most users won't report bugs unless you make it stupidly easy

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Re: Show HN: Most users won't report bugs unless you make it stupidly easy

#191

> If you've ever had a user say “something’s broken” and then ghost you forever, you probably get where I’m coming from. As a consumer who reports bugs, I’d actually say the opposite problem is just as common — when the company ghosts you after you’ve taken the time to report an issue. I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve used the official channels — bug trackers, support forums, contact forms — only to hear nothin…

Having run engineering teams for some reasonably popular open source products, my experience is that community reported issues can easily out-pace engineering capacity.

For every user who reports a clear, reproducible defect, there 10 others who report non-reproducible issues, who conflate features with bugs, who ghost, who use issues for support or questions, who are just angry about something and think you're an idiot, who report (since fixed) defects against old versions, or who report duplicates to existing issues. It's a very noisy channel.

It can lead to a crappy outcome for both the reporter who earnestly tried to help and for the developer who wishes they had the time to carefully address every reported issue but just don't.

Sometimes, all that's feasible is making time to triage/acknowledge each issue in a reasonable timeframe and to be forthright about its prioritization.

As an aside, I find your opinion that "if I give you my time in the form of a bug report, the least you can do is give me your time" to be common. We rarely have the right to demand another person's attention, though. Especially with respect to non-commercial open source hobbyist maintainers.

Re: Show HN: Most users won't report bugs unless you make it stupidly easy

#192

I use to report bugs all the time with details of the bug and what I was doing and if possible how to cause it. But then when you encounter the same bugs years later doing some very common task that you momentarily forgot to do your work around for, it made me wonder why I was wasting my time reporting it. These days I rarely report bugs unless it is brand new software released a few weeks ago at most, or a brand new…

I've had the opposite experience reporting a bug on Telegram. But it was a particularly thorough report (windbg and all) and if that's what makes the difference, it seems like an unrealistic thing to expect of most users.

Re: Show HN: Most users won't report bugs unless you make it stupidly easy

#193
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The difficulty in reporting a bug comes from the friction required to filter the "page doesn't work" with no further explanation reports This so much. I can't tell you how often I've seen someone trying to get tech support on something say "When I load the program, I get an error" but don't even say what the error says. I understand that most people have never worked a QA job and so don't know how to write a good b…

Relevant xkcd https://xkcd.com/2501 It's weird seeing people without computer familiarity using one, it feels like they are blind, they click in a button with a label and a icon, and when you ask todo it again they can't find it(even when you literally tell them the button name), it feels like their vision FOV is limited to a few centimeters, like those horror games flashlight lol, it's my own experience, but yeah, t…

[On a thread about how people don't read]

Yes, and some of the details really need to be emphasized, because I'm sure that a good chunk of people assume this means "people don't read more than they need to / people have a lack of inquisitiveness and general competence matching their lack of interest in reading for personal fulfillment" or whatever.

No, no, this is literal and (almost) not exaggerated. They _don't read_. Anything. _Ever_.

The almost-not-exaggeration is in the "ever", if anything, because some of these people can eventually be compelled, with much sighing and gnashing of teeth, to actually read something.

But as a matter of course, they don't read. And that's not just "don't read what they don't need to." It's more like, you know how your eyes happen across some text and you just read it inadvertently? And your daily life is full of moments where these glances at random words give you little reminders or flashes of insight or just fuel for the train of thought? Haha, that's a good one. I didn't even do that on purpose. Anyway, they don't do any of that shit, they literally have to start reading on purpose and the rest of the time, as far as I can tell, they are actually not processing any of it at all. They navigate the computer/phone by rote or by visual cue based on color/position of UI elements. When they can't figure out where to go using that method and you suggest that they actually, like, read the shit on the fucking web page they're trying to navigate, they ...

... start at the top left corner ...

... and crawl the page elements linearly ...

... and when they arrive at the correct one ...

... there's a pretty good chance that they won't actually recognize it as such, because for some reason they simply can't contextualize any of the shit they're reading!

These are people who have jobs and social lives, are not wards of the state, and can carry on a coherent, reasonable, and engaging conversation with you.

(No shade thrown to visual thinkers though -- there may be some overlap, but I don't run into these people as often as I run into visual thinkers, so I think I'm talking about something else)

Re: Show HN: Most users won't report bugs unless you make it stupidly easy

#194
post #4

The difficulty in reporting a bug comes from the friction required to filter the "page doesn't work" with no further explanation reports, or the "my neighbour is a spy for the government and I have proof" reports (real types of reports for a browser company, for example, which surely exist for other places users think that "is" the internet like Facebook). I agree that reporting bugs can be hard, but the amount of sp…

> "page doesn't work" with no further explanation reports It cuts both ways. Guess what's one of the most popular format for apps and webpages to report failures to the user? "Oops. Something went wrong." Not exactly overflowing with useful information, either. Sure, the system is probably logging the fault internally, and is always collecting metrics that help with contextualization later. But the system and its own…

>Something happened! :(

Yes, I love it. How helpful! I'm so lucky to have such a meaningful error message to Google. Now I only have to blindly try a list of 50 possible fixes before I discover that I couldn't save a replay on my XBox One because the disk was full.

Naturally, the stock counterpoint is that this happened because users thought real error messages were too scawy! :(

Counter-counterpoint: Oh well

Re: Show HN: Most users won't report bugs unless you make it stupidly easy

#196
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on the company. I’d never dream of reporting a bug to Apple, they don’t care. I think your turnip truck analogy applies there. On the other hand, iA Writer consistently replies thoughtfully and usually fixes the bug. It’s so important to treat companies individually instead of just according to some blanket impression of the world. Individual treatment means good companies benefit and grow, while blanket t…

Counter-anecdotally, I reported two WebAuthn issues to Apple in separate instances and both were immediately fixed in the next patch version of iOS/Mac OS. In both cases first line support had little understanding of the issue but were very good at following process, trusting me, calling me back to keep me updated, and escalating to engineering as necessary.

That’s security though, not mere bugs.

Re: Show HN: Most users won't report bugs unless you make it stupidly easy

#197
I stopped reporting bugs when projects started to deploy bots that close "stale" bugs. No, someone ignoring my issue for 3 months does not imply issue went away.

I was cool when bugs waited for proper prioritization 6 months later. Ok, it took time, but someone is busy. When they are getting closed automatically, there is no reason to bother.

Re: Show HN: Most users won't report bugs unless you make it stupidly easy

#198
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some teams have a frickin' bad attitude and couldn't care less. Try submitting a bug about how menus are displayed 5px from where they are supposed to be in a GTK app rendered on a X11-server that runs on the Windows desktop and see if the GTK developers care. Or try telling the react-testing-framework folks that they're asking me to put handrails in my bathroom when my house is burning down. Have experiences like th…

Don't forget all major OSS repositories using a stale bot to close any issue regardless of how many people reported it or how serious it is. Close and lock at times. Yikes.

I stopped reporting bugs when I see the repo is using stale bot. One thing is to be ignored for a while, because maintainers are busy. Another one is to be told "we ignored you long enough, it is not an issue".

Yes it still is. I made a reproducible example, try it out.

Re: Show HN: Most users won't report bugs unless you make it stupidly easy

#199
post #107
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget all major OSS repositories using a stale bot to close any issue regardless of how many people reported it or how serious it is. Close and lock at times. Yikes.

I have seen OpenZFS adopt one, but whenever I have seen a bug that has merit closed by the stale bot, it is reopened by a contributor and a not-stale flag is added to prevent it from being automatically closed again. Note that I am a contributor, but I am not one of the ones who is reopening bugs and marking them as not stale. The few times I saw such a bug and would have done it, someone else beat me to it. The stal…

Mine were closed by stale bot. They had merit and reproducible example. I just was not stalking the repo, watching it constantly to keep it alive.

Re: Show HN: Most users won't report bugs unless you make it stupidly easy

#200
post #199
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen OpenZFS adopt one, but whenever I have seen a bug that has merit closed by the stale bot, it is reopened by a contributor and a not-stale flag is added to prevent it from being automatically closed again. Note that I am a contributor, but I am not one of the ones who is reopening bugs and marking them as not stale. The few times I saw such a bug and would have done it, someone else beat me to it. The stal…

Mine were closed by stale bot. They had merit and reproducible example. I just was not stalking the repo, watching it constantly to keep it alive.

Which issue? I can reopen it and mark it as not stale.
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