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Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

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Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#191

Post by SamBam »

nkkollaw wrote: post #131
kbr wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's 7kb minified and gzipped. Vue is almost 30kb. If you use a runtime version of Moon, it becomes 3kb. This makes it faster to load on mobile devices. Along with that, it also has lots of official plugins similar to what Vue provides.

Sure, don't get me wrong—I'm not saying it's useless or it isn't an achievement. You have to realize though that as developers we invest a lot of time on learning a technology. Companies invest a lot of money into stacks. It's not always easy to find developers and if your stack is "standard", it makes it easier to both grow your team and get up to speed with the code. For a developer, company, or team, 23KB of JavaS…

> You have to realize though that as developers we invest a lot of time on learning a technology

But plenty of front-end developers have not developed in Vue. If I'm starting a new project and someone suggests doing it in Vue, and I have to learn it all anyway, I might consider this as an alternative.

Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#192

Post by 52-6F-62 »

adjkant wrote: post #185
photojosh wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My position exactly: backend developer who only wants to do the minimum on the frontend. But for the next stage of the system (rich media streaming), it will require a whole lot more interactivity on the front end and the time has come to decide on something! I'm leaning towards Vue because it seems easier to grok as a solo developer while still having plenty of power and support... but I'm indecisive!

The cases for each personally: Vue - It's been described as "Angular 1 without the flaws" before to me. I think it'd probably be the easiest transition. It also seems to have the advantage of being able to be sprinkled in lightly or heavily, dealers choice. React - As someone who loves functional programming, Redux immediately clicked for me, and I do enjoy that idea of state. However, it seems like a lot more work t…

As somebody who does a mix of front end and back end fairly regularly, I think you're pretty on the nose here.

If I can extend a little further, React is favoured (outside of the potential as a state machine) as the front-runner in isomorphic front-end apps. Of course there are also some lighter-weight similar frameworks like InfernoJS, and Preact, but React is certainly the one with the largest community and more robust support.

If you're looking for mainly UI event handling, 2 way binding, etc, Vue is extremely capable and will probably keep your fingers (and maybe mind) a little cleaner. It can take a lot of the load and repetitive work out of developing that end.

If you're looking to build out a UI with a large number of repeating elements, again state-handling, then I have to say I love working with React. It even caused me to change my way of thinking toward building out framework-less front end applications.

Another plus with React is the large number of pre-built UI design frameworks and components that you can simply drop in everywhere and modify to the extent you really need to, if at all.

As for media streaming, HLS.js (https://github.com/video-dev/hls.js) is a dream tool! There are some tricky bits to figure out that aren't documented overly well (like where the ID3 data is hiding amongst a single Uint8 array that has to be encoded and spliced), but the demuxer works like a dream without a heavy load increase and the event system is easy enough to work through.

That is if you're building out your own custom player. I work at a media company and had to build out a custom player to diagnose some issues with stream metadata coming from a number of radio stations through a series of nodes (with no streaming media experience at that level previously) and I was able to get it up and running inside of a day or two.

Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#193

Post by photojosh »

adjkant wrote: post #185
photojosh wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My position exactly: backend developer who only wants to do the minimum on the frontend. But for the next stage of the system (rich media streaming), it will require a whole lot more interactivity on the front end and the time has come to decide on something! I'm leaning towards Vue because it seems easier to grok as a solo developer while still having plenty of power and support... but I'm indecisive!

The cases for each personally: Vue - It's been described as "Angular 1 without the flaws" before to me. I think it'd probably be the easiest transition. It also seems to have the advantage of being able to be sprinkled in lightly or heavily, dealers choice. React - As someone who loves functional programming, Redux immediately clicked for me, and I do enjoy that idea of state. However, it seems like a lot more work t…

"when it comes to any serious project will be working with a true front end developer."

So... not for me then! Ha! :)

I've had a few more discussions with a webdev friend and it looks like Vue is the way to go. Thanks all.

Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#194

Post by photojosh »

52-6F-62 wrote: post #192
adjkant wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cases for each personally: Vue - It's been described as "Angular 1 without the flaws" before to me. I think it'd probably be the easiest transition. It also seems to have the advantage of being able to be sprinkled in lightly or heavily, dealers choice. React - As someone who loves functional programming, Redux immediately clicked for me, and I do enjoy that idea of state. However, it seems like a lot more work t…

As somebody who does a mix of front end and back end fairly regularly, I think you're pretty on the nose here. If I can extend a little further, React is favoured (outside of the potential as a state machine) as the front-runner in isomorphic front-end apps. Of course there are also some lighter-weight similar frameworks like InfernoJS, and Preact, but React is certainly the one with the largest community and more ro…

Thanks for the comments: very helpful! As I said in another comment, Vue looks increasingly the best choice given the use case and my experience.

It's actually going to be everything except streaming video; going to send through audio, image links, and some extra data, and mush it all together at the client.

Fortunately I don't have to worry much about adaptive bandwidth, since for the target audience we can just kick them off if they don't have enough bandwidth... if they can't get the 24 kbps for the Opus stream, then too bad!

I'll have a good look at HLS.js. But I'm prototyping out using WebRTC to do it rather than HLS, given that iOS 11 will support it natively. Unless people have a strong argument against doing that way...

Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#195

Post by photojosh »

jhall1468 wrote: post #163
photojosh wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have yet to do anything on my webapp that uses a JS framework (the minimal interactivity is raw JS and at most a touch of jQuery) precisely because I've yet to see a framework that I was somewhat confident would be relatively stable over the long term, say 10 years? Something like "COBOL for the web" would be ideal. But if I were starting now I wouldn't choose Angular 1.x, would I? Any recommendations.

A web app beyond trivial has to have a framework, if you don't use one than you built one and are now maintaining both the app and the framework. I wouldn't call an app with "minimal interactivity" an app, anymore than I'd call a newspaper interactive reading material.

My system is a number of independent components that are each individually simple enough to not require a framework, and don't share any common code. It's only a few hundred lines of JS and jQuery.

One of the components is a keypad and display for a judge to enter scores... basically a web-connected traditional calculator in its design. :) So "minimally interactive" is probably a poor description on my part; it's nothing but interactions, just really simple ones.

Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#196

Post by korzun »

kbr wrote: post #79
nkkollaw wrote: post #78

Looks good, but a slight improvement in speed is not enough IMHO to switch from a proven, popular framework (like React or Vue). I think it takes a radical take on the problem to balance out the cons of using an unproven framework for any non-personal project.

It's 7kb minified and gzipped. Vue is almost 30kb. If you use a runtime version of Moon, it becomes 3kb. This makes it faster to load on mobile devices. Along with that, it also has lots of official plugins similar to what Vue provides.

The size is not a factor at that scale. Mobile suffers from issues latency, not with the 10-50K size difference.

You can't compare your framework to something else (in size) if your framework does not account for backward compatibility and is missing some of the features.

Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#197

Post by korzun »

Technically, one can pull down any mature framework, decouple all of the features into smaller segments, get rid of all the code responsible for backward compatibility, and re-brand it as 'lighter' alternative.

How is this any different? You can't claim that X is better or faster than Y just because X is smaller or has fewer features. There are a lot of other factors in play here.

Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#198

Post by CuriousSkeptic »

photojosh wrote: post #156
adjkant wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Angular 1 has its flaws but I've found it to be pretty stable, has developed some pretty consistent paradigms, and gets certain jobs done well. Don't put the round peg in a square hole, but I think it serves many web apps well, particularly if you're going the SPA route and don't care too much about things like viewing without javascript or ultra fast load times. I used it first in a personal project, then in a job,…

My position exactly: backend developer who only wants to do the minimum on the frontend. But for the next stage of the system (rich media streaming), it will require a whole lot more interactivity on the front end and the time has come to decide on something! I'm leaning towards Vue because it seems easier to grok as a solo developer while still having plenty of power and support... but I'm indecisive!

Best advice is probably to prepare for a lot of front end. Doing "the minimum" takes considerable skill and experience.

Angular 1 or 2 makes some things simple by providing a proper "framework" in the place-logic-here sense. OTOH it can also be constraining because anything not matching that framework will be almost impossible to force in.

And when things gets a little more advanced than the todo-app you suddenly have to learn lots of complex parts of the framework at once.

React falls on the other end. Things stay relatively simple from todo and up, so easy to grow with. But there is no framework and no real consensus, so you need to evaluate a lot of debates and variations on how to approach things to move forward, this can require a lot more experience.

Re: Show HN: Moon – fast 7k Vue alternative

#199

Post by agumonkey »

kbr wrote: post #166
localvoid wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He tried to solve performance problems in complex applications, and obviously complex applications doesn't need to preserve internal state when children list is changing :)

Haha didn't see this. Moon hasn't hit v1 yet, and a keyed virtual DOM is definitely on the roadmap.

Hi, pardon my noobness, what keyed means here ?
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