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Show HN: Xmake, a modern C/C++ build utility

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Re: Show HN: Xmake, a modern C/C++ build utility

#181

Post by euyyn »

tele_ski wrote: post #22
waruqi wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's hermetic builds?

Hermetic Builds. ... Our builds are hermetic, meaning that they are insensitive to the libraries and other software installed on the build machine. Instead, builds depend on known versions of build tools, such as compilers, and dependencies, such as libraries. Kind of like a container for building? I had to look it up myself.

That, and also insensitive to builds you might have done of other versions of the source code, etc. I.e. it's not affected by "files left behind" that would require you to do a clean build and lose incrementality.

Re: Show HN: Xmake, a modern C/C++ build utility

#182

Post by rusk »

pfranz wrote: post #179
rusk wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just create a virtual environment Yaw super lightweight ...

In other comments you talk about "lightweight" as cognitive load, I'm curious why Python is any different than other languages? I haven't used virtualenv very much, but I've been doing similar things for longer than virtualenv has been around. You need a `python` binary on PATH and a PYTHONPATH pointing to where you want to get your libraries from. virtualenv packages this up into a directory in a more user friendly…

That you needed four paragraphs to get your point across kind of emphasises my point.

I don't mean to be rude, but the key to getting people's attention is to get your point across quickly. As soon as somebody starts going all you have to do is install a frobozz and murtle a plinth I really just lose interest.

EDIT - doubting myself I went back up the thread here and this topic kicks off with "meson installation has many dependencies, it is not very lightweight" ("lightweight" operationally defined here for this discussion) - to which somebody replies "it doesn't matter, Ninja includes Python" or words to that effect. "it's not the correct version of Python" is the general gist of what comes next to which our GGP here says "all you have to do" is set up a python virtual environment, which is around the point where I start to feel frustrated and the need to go do something interesting.

So to be clear, the discussion is not about python being lightweight, but meson, and trying to wave complexity away with yet another layer of complexity (even if it's something as well known as python virtualenvs) is not reducing complexity but hiding it, IMO.

Re: Show HN: Xmake, a modern C/C++ build utility

#183

Post by enriquto »

rcxdude wrote: post #162
enriquto wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The dependences do not change upon distribution, so they can be safely encoded on the makefile. As for "detecting" the compiler, either it is in the path, or in the CC variable (or analogous), in which case the makefile can work; I do not honestly understand what is the task of cmake here. The only use that I can see is creating projects for other build-systems, e.g. for windows. But if you only distribute your code…

The dependencies do change depending on the user. Different version of libraries will be in different locations, may require different build flags, etc, etc. Likewise the build may support a range of compilers which require (sometimes completely) different compiler options for a successful build. This is the reason autotools existed in the first place (and it was only intended to even out the differences between 'POS…

> The dependencies do change depending on the user. Different version of libraries will be in different locations, may require different build flags, etc, etc. Likewise the build may support a range of compilers which require (sometimes completely) different compiler options for a successful build.

What you say is true, but it can be interpreted as either positive or negative features. I would say that code that depends on specific versions of a library or specific compiler options is bad code; and propagating bad code instead of fixing it is not a good idea. Cmake makes it very easy and convenient to ship bad code, as you explain. Thus, it is a force of evil! It allows, even encourages, the programmers to be sloppy without short-term visible consequences.

Re: Show HN: Xmake, a modern C/C++ build utility

#184

Post by pfranz »

rusk wrote: post #182
pfranz wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In other comments you talk about "lightweight" as cognitive load, I'm curious why Python is any different than other languages? I haven't used virtualenv very much, but I've been doing similar things for longer than virtualenv has been around. You need a `python` binary on PATH and a PYTHONPATH pointing to where you want to get your libraries from. virtualenv packages this up into a directory in a more user friendly…

That you needed four paragraphs to get your point across kind of emphasises my point. I don't mean to be rude, but the key to getting people's attention is to get your point across quickly. As soon as somebody starts going all you have to do is install a frobozz and murtle a plinth I really just lose interest. EDIT - doubting myself I went back up the thread here and this topic kicks off with "meson installation has…

I honestly wasn't trying to be combative. I tried to make my comment just long enough to give context (showing my understanding of the solution and the assumptions I'm making). I'm not trying to interject my opinion, but see where my assumptions might be wrong.

I agree long wandering threads are difficult to follow.

I have little interest in new C++ build systems, but will jump in and contribute when I see a familiar problem I want to learn more about like managing sizable Python codebases. Python 2/3 isn't relevant at all to meson and I don't see the docs mentioning any need for version or package management. I've only ever heard/seen virtualenv needed in project management, never in distributed software. Is your beef with Python or any software using an interpreted language? Outside of the 2to3 transition and being deeply integrated in many distros, it has the fundamental problems other interpreted languages have and are handled in the same way.

Re: Show HN: Xmake, a modern C/C++ build utility

#185

Post by fnord123 »

DataWorker wrote: post #151
fnord123 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>When did "Show HN" threads became shark tank? From the 2007 announcement of Dropbox: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863 """ 1. For a Linux user, you can already build such a system yourself quite trivially by getting an FTP account, mounting it locally with curlftpfs, and then using SVN or CVS on the mounted filesystem. From Windows or Mac, this FTP account could be accessed through built-in software. """

Does anybody actually use Dropbox anymore? Feel like it’s a dead product.

""" As of September 30, 2018, we served over 500 million registered users but only 12.3 million paying users. The actual number of unique users is lower than we report as one person may register more than once for our platform. As a result, we have fewer unique registered users that we may be able to convert to paying users. A majority of our registered users may never convert to a paid subscription to our platform. """

Re: Show HN: Xmake, a modern C/C++ build utility

#186

Post by mhh__ »

seanballais wrote: post #42
mhh__ wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until you eventually you have n-k fit for purpose build systems. Having competing standards isn't always a bad thing e.g. if they do slightly different jobs

What does k mean?

A number such that n-k is less than n+1

Re: Show HN: Xmake, a modern C/C++ build utility

#188

Post by roel_v »

rusk wrote: post #122
roel_v wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have python 2 vs 3 issues if not every day, then at least 3 times a week, because of being stuck with a version of third party software that uses Python 2 (ArcGIS 10 series) for part of my code base. Of course Python apologists are now going to say 'oh you're just one guy in a niche situation', and 'yeah that's what you get for not upgrading to the latest version of all software', or any of the dozens of other excu…

In fairness to the python community by-and-large, they are very supportive of legacy users and niche configurations. Python 2.x seems like something like 15 years now past its sell by date and is still actively supported. There's a lot of patience there ... people will make the leap when they're ready. I think the pressure to always be on the latest and greatest is what did for the ruby and perl communities, and this…

Not disagreeing with you, just clarifying: I'm not even complaining so much about the Python 'development' community (i.e., those writing the interpreter and most of the people writing libraries); what irks me is the 'evangelists', Python users who feel the need to proselytize about things that are obviously not perfect, but claim they are and straight up dismiss any objections or real world concerns. I'm talking about the people who with a straight face call themselves 'Pythonistas'. Jebus, if so much of your self image and self worth is tied up in the programming language you like to use most, you need professional help. Of course all languages have people like this, and most 'communities' that are not software related have similar people too, it's just that posts like this seem to bring out this sort of hanger-ons. It probably also has something to do with me turning into Statler or Waldorf over time. Meh.

Re: Show HN: Xmake, a modern C/C++ build utility

#189

Post by philpem »

rusk wrote: post #130
philpem wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is if you run it inside a Docker container... no mess, no fuss...

I cant tell if you’re joking or not ;)

Depends if someone's already written the Dockerfile for you ;)

But to be fair, I usually just clone a Virtualbox machine because I'm used to the workflow. :)

Re: Show HN: Xmake, a modern C/C++ build utility

#190

Post by rcxdude »

enriquto wrote: post #183
rcxdude wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The dependencies do change depending on the user. Different version of libraries will be in different locations, may require different build flags, etc, etc. Likewise the build may support a range of compilers which require (sometimes completely) different compiler options for a successful build. This is the reason autotools existed in the first place (and it was only intended to even out the differences between 'POS…

> The dependencies do change depending on the user. Different version of libraries will be in different locations, may require different build flags, etc, etc. Likewise the build may support a range of compilers which require (sometimes completely) different compiler options for a successful build. What you say is true, but it can be interpreted as either positive or negative features. I would say that code that depe…

I'm talking about trying to make a shared library versus a static library vs an executable, or include different directories. I'm not talking about depending on '-O2' for correctness. Likewise with different versions of a library in different locations. And even in the case of more obscure flags, the cause is usually bad or incompatible compilers or libraries, not 'bad code' on the part of the project. A build system needs to be able to deal with a large variety of situations, because ultimately the responsibility for making the project build is on the project and the build system, not the user and their environment.
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