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Show HN: Most users won't report bugs unless you make it stupidly easy

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Re: Show HN: Most users won't report bugs unless you make it stupidly easy

#171

Post by blueflow »

throwaway81523 wrote: post #149
handsclean wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on the company. I’d never dream of reporting a bug to Apple, they don’t care. I think your turnip truck analogy applies there. On the other hand, iA Writer consistently replies thoughtfully and usually fixes the bug. It’s so important to treat companies individually instead of just according to some blanket impression of the world. Individual treatment means good companies benefit and grow, while blanket t…

Then there are the ones who send you a detailed response trying to convince you that it isn't a bug, when it definitely is one. I've switched programs over that, not because the bug itself was that important, but because I don't like running code that I've established to be written by boneheads.

Is this a reference to https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/5644#issuecomment-... ?

Re: Show HN: Most users won't report bugs unless you make it stupidly easy

#173

Post by zerkten »

tobr wrote: post #131
handsclean wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on the company. I’d never dream of reporting a bug to Apple, they don’t care. I think your turnip truck analogy applies there. On the other hand, iA Writer consistently replies thoughtfully and usually fixes the bug. It’s so important to treat companies individually instead of just according to some blanket impression of the world. Individual treatment means good companies benefit and grow, while blanket t…

> I’d never dream of reporting a bug to Apple, they don’t care. One of the few issues I’ve reported to them was promptly responded to and fixed, but that was probably because it had privacy implications.

I've done the same with Windows, but I had a unique bug with Storage Spaces and did some debugging to identify driver issues to include with the report. I guess the reason it was fixed was because there was similar feedback without the debugging on the Windows Feedback app and because the blast radius was small. It was just one .sys file, but even then Storage Spaces is relatively contained.

Compare that to any GUI-related issue. Almost every surface has some kind of unsupported/unexpected hooking or reliance on unchanging elements because some company has built a tool that integrates. They've then sold this to Fortune 500s who explode if Windows blows up their tool. This makes the startup cost for fixing many things very expensive.

If you report issues related to higher profile/usage functionality then you are less likely to get traction because:

* They know about the issue already, but it's a really hard to fix for some reason which may not be obvious to you. All stakeholders are not equal in the decision process hence compatibility concerns win in some situations.

* Even if they decide to fix it, a huge amount of effort has to go into scheduling the fix in a release. Some authority may agree to go fix it and everyone is excited. That's just the start of a painful process to implement and test the fix.

Re: Show HN: Most users won't report bugs unless you make it stupidly easy

#175

Post by selcuka »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #144
selcuka wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If something isn't completely breaking the use case of a program, or doesn't have any viable work around, I just don't expect it to ever get fixed Yep. That has always been the general industry sentiment [1]: > Here’s another bug that’s not worth fixing: if you have a bug that totally crashes your program when you open gigantic files, but it only happens to your single user who has OS/2 and who, for all you know, d…

You missed the important part: >But mostly, it’s worth fixing bugs. Even if they are “harmless” bugs, they may reduce the reputation of your company and your product, which, in the long run, will have a significant impact on your earnings. It’s hard to overcome the reputation of having a buggy product.

I didn't miss it. That's the serious part, after Joel Spolsky sarcastically explains what companies usually do.

Re: Show HN: Most users won't report bugs unless you make it stupidly easy

#176

Post by alpaca128 »

whatevaa wrote: post #135
unclad5968 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The devs for the game factorio encourage players to post bugs on the forums. The devs use forums as a issue tracker and respond to bugs with fixes. I have no idea if that makes it more satisfying to report bugs or not, but I always thought it was cool.

Factorio also has automatic opt-out crash reporter. A lot of people in here are against opt-out, but once they added this years ago, they fixed tons of crashes which were NEVER reported.

The aversion to opt-out exists because it's associated with tech corporations tracking everything in a maliciously intransparent way, using some convoluted opt-out process as an excuse to give the illusion of respect for the user.

If a game just sends info about a crash I couldn't care less.

Re: Show HN: Most users won't report bugs unless you make it stupidly easy

#177

Post by pasc1878 »

0points wrote: post #155
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a tiny bit of sympathy for this, I have received a bug report that said “Your software doesn’t work”. I’d always reply though, usually with something equally terse.

Most recently, a github user opened a issue on one of my projects and asked "Why should I use this instead of Y". As a developer sharing my code online, I don't even know where to begin answering that. This is typical non-tech spam.

No this is a valid request.

If a user wants to use a piece of software to do A and several different pieces of code do that - why should they choose yours.

What is your selling point.

Especially if they have been using the other product why should they switch to yours?

Re: Show HN: Most users won't report bugs unless you make it stupidly easy

#178

Post by throwaway81523 »

blueflow wrote: post #171
throwaway81523 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then there are the ones who send you a detailed response trying to convince you that it isn't a bug, when it definitely is one. I've switched programs over that, not because the bug itself was that important, but because I don't like running code that I've established to be written by boneheads.

Is this a reference to https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/5644#issuecomment-... ?

Hah lol, I hadn't seen that one. I was thinking of something unrelated, though it has happened to me more than once.

Re: Show HN: Most users won't report bugs unless you make it stupidly easy

#179

Post by sebk »

handsclean wrote: post #122
AngryData wrote: post #103

I use to report bugs all the time with details of the bug and what I was doing and if possible how to cause it. But then when you encounter the same bugs years later doing some very common task that you momentarily forgot to do your work around for, it made me wonder why I was wasting my time reporting it. These days I rarely report bugs unless it is brand new software released a few weeks ago at most, or a brand new…

It depends on the company. I’d never dream of reporting a bug to Apple, they don’t care. I think your turnip truck analogy applies there. On the other hand, iA Writer consistently replies thoughtfully and usually fixes the bug. It’s so important to treat companies individually instead of just according to some blanket impression of the world. Individual treatment means good companies benefit and grow, while blanket t…

Counter-anecdotally, I reported two WebAuthn issues to Apple in separate instances and both were immediately fixed in the next patch version of iOS/Mac OS. In both cases first line support had little understanding of the issue but were very good at following process, trusting me, calling me back to keep me updated, and escalating to engineering as necessary.

Re: Show HN: Most users won't report bugs unless you make it stupidly easy

#180

Post by calcifer »

stalfosknight wrote: post #169
calcifer wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GTK is developed entirely by volunteers. None of the "rules" of bug reporting in this thread apply. If it's a business selling something to you? Sure, don't bother if they don't seem to care. But with volunteer-driven FOSS projects, what you want as an end user is much, much lower on the list of priorities compared to a business product. Even if you have implemented the "fix" [1] yourself, they might still not accept…

The thing I dislike the most about the Linux world is how free software/developers are somehow exempt from any kind of criticism because it is "developed by volunteers."

Criticism is fine, as long as it's constructive and not to the tune of "these volunteers are not volunteering to my satisfaction".
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