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Show HN: My new JavaScript MVC framework

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Re: Show HN: My new JavaScript MVC framework

#161

Post by Zelphyr »

iSnow wrote: post #142
julie1 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HTML, css, JS (jquery) have stable APIs, when new developers come they don't have to learn something new. If your code degrade over time, sorry to tell you, a framework won't solve the problem. If you have coders that don't care about maintainability of code correction, code organization in whatever technology, they won't care about what you wish. As usual, they won't take the time to learn the frameworks, will diver…

Well I think we'll just have to disagree here. I think you are patently wrong if you really believe you can keep up maintainability of a largish codebase by appealing to craftmanship in a real-world company. This is all nice and well in academics and start-ups but some years down the road, your code is going to be a mess. Frameworks, especially opinionated frameworks are a tremendous help. Coding in jQuery or native…

In my experience, the only reason the code is going to be a mess is because the company hired a bunch of junior developers and gave them "Architect" titles. I can show time and time again that with a team of seasoned engineers the code not only isn't a mess but in fact there is less code that does more, and does it more efficiently.

Re: Show HN: My new JavaScript MVC framework

#162

Post by Zelphyr »

batoure wrote: post #55
Zelphyr wrote: post #36

Here are my thoughts, but you won't like them. Stop with the frameworks. Learn Javascript. Learn CSS. Learn HTML. You'll find pretty quickly that what you need are libraries , not frameworks. Things like jQuery, underscore, etc...

A developer I worked with several companies ago told me the same type of thing about learning OO "Its not necessary just learn to code better". The fact of the matter is large code bases need to be supported over time by diverse groups of people and frameworks help enforce standards that get people up to speed quickly. That developer I knew, he has been chronically unemployed for the last 5 years because he lacks the…

Sorry, he's not a great coder. I think there is a big difference between saying "just learn to code better" and "use the right tool for the job" (which was the intent of my post).

I'll add an addendum to my post that frameworks can be the right tool for the job. But 99% of the time they're used the wrong way and for the wrong purpose.

Re: Show HN: My new JavaScript MVC framework

#163

Post by Zelphyr »

snicker wrote: post #51
AznHisoka wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's similar to my viewpoint. Stop with all the frameworks - what new, powerful functionality will it provide your users that existing things can't do (ie JQuery, raw JS)?

the point of a framework is speedy development. less lines of code for results. the tradeoff is often bloat, which one should (ideally) refactor out later. Angular can get overwhelmingly slow if you're not careful with your code, but gosh dang, you sure can whip an app up pretty fast

> bloat, which one should (ideally) refactor out later

How do you refactor out bloat from a framework without throwing away the framework?

This is my whole point about not using frameworks. They're a siren that WILL eat you in the end.

Re: Show HN: My new JavaScript MVC framework

#164

Post by Zelphyr »

tomelders wrote: post #69
superqd wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I saw the link title, my first thought was "why do we need yet another new MVC Javascript framework"?

That's sort of like the tone Microsoft took after releasing ie6. Landscapes change. Every single js framework in existence today will be unfit for purpose in 10 years. So we enhance the frameworks we have and try out new ones so in 10 years time we don't find ourselves stuck with tools that don't work anymore.

The problem is the shear volume of new frameworks. Writing your own framework has almost become a rite of passage for software developers. And I'm not knocking that. I did it myself. I learned a lot, the most important of which was that my framework was crap and that I didn't really need it at all.

Re: Show HN: My new JavaScript MVC framework

#166

Post by nawitus »

hmsimha wrote: post #116
nawitus wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But DOM is separate from JavaScript.

DOM is separate from Ecmascript, but is actually one of the 3 components of Javascript (along with Ecmascript and the BOM). This is at least according to Professional Javascript for Web Developers (you can see it on 'page 3' in the Amazon preview).

The sources I've read (Douglas Crockford or Wikipedia) clearly state that DOM is separate from JavaScript.

Re: Show HN: My new JavaScript MVC framework

#167

Post by boyaka »

I've been using the dform library [link] to create my DOM. I'm creating an input form used to query a database with PHP and generate a chart from the data using FusionCharts. I've been considering utilizing frameworks to help with form creation, manipulation, and query generation/execution/processing, but I've decided to stick with just these two libraries for the former and raw PHP for the latter. I also use PHP to enable/disable parts of my form via if's and file includes.

I really like dform's flexibility. I have been able to add every HTML elements that I've needed with the same syntax for every one, making it very simple to stick them into PHP loops to generate the elements based on the query results. I've learned a lot about writing jQuery functions while using it.

FusionCharts is very specific in what it does, and is compatible with many languages. I have actually learned to use it's classes in both PHP and JavaScript so that I can create any part of the chart I please in either language, and it is capable of transmitting data in both JSON and XML even though it uses XML internally. I've briefly taught myself the differences between the formats and have gone from manually creating XML, to learning that JSON is way better, to automatically converting my arrays into JSON data.

I feel that I've kept my project quite lean indeed, and was actually worried about not accomplishing a lot, not being complex enough. But I have intentionally been trying to avoid complexities so that I can make it easy to pick up and use, just include jquery, dform, and the FusionCharts.js/.php (and source code).

[link] https://github.com/daffl/jquery.dform

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