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Show HN: Where Adblock+ injects 20K CSS rules, HTTPSB injects one

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Re: Show HN: Where Adblock+ injects 20K CSS rules, HTTPSB injects one

#151

Given that advertising pays for a lot of the services we all use, the use of Adblock and similar programs constitutes defection in game theory terms - the more people who do it, the worse off we all are - which means even if you choose to do it yourself (I personally don't), it is against your interests to encourage other people to do it. Also, given that computing is one of very few areas of technology in which our…

I am of same believe. I don't use any ad blockers. And most ads don't bother me and sometimes I find useful stuff through ads. I don't even mind full page ads, that you have to view for 10 seconds before you can view the content. But I hate ads that play sound. Those are serious distractions and usually I would close the page before I get a chance to view it. I wish we can just block only annoying ads.

Re: Show HN: Where Adblock+ injects 20K CSS rules, HTTPSB injects one

#152

Given that advertising pays for a lot of the services we all use, the use of Adblock and similar programs constitutes defection in game theory terms - the more people who do it, the worse off we all are - which means even if you choose to do it yourself (I personally don't), it is against your interests to encourage other people to do it. Also, given that computing is one of very few areas of technology in which our…

The vast majority has bought into the utter bullshit that advertising makes the web free. This delusion buries not only the fact that we have made a deal with the devil, but also that the deal really sucks. What we traded our souls for we don’t even get. The web would be both cheaper and better if we just paid for what we use straight up. And more importantly, society would be better. I'll explain all of these.

IT'S NOT FREE

We’re not Facebook’s customers, advertisers are (more on this below). But we are the advertiser’s customers, and the cost of the "free lunch" is simply shifted to the price of the things we buy from them. In other words we still end up paying for the full cost of Facebook (and even more, as I'll get to next). Costs may even shift regressively, to advertised products predominately consumed by those with lower incomes, in which case the poor are subsidizing the better off.

IT'S MORE EXPENSIVE...

Not only are you still paying for the full cost of the Facebook product you use, you are paying for all the advertising overhead: the costs of its advertising technology and infrastructure (huge, btw), the agency and creative costs (Don Draper and company have to pay for the hookers and scotch somehow, not to mention what’s-his-name who basically just lounges in his office barefoot thinking Japanese), and the advertiser's big marketing departments (that often outnumber and outspend the people making the product!).

The best minds of my generation are thinking about how to make people click ads. That sucks. – Jeff Hammerbacher, fmr. Manager of Facebook Data Team, founder of Cloudera

So in addition to the original product cost and the ad overhead costs, you are also paying the opportunity cost of an inferior product (as Dennis Curtis points out in the OP) as well as the engineering costs of figuring out how to optimize ad revenue, because that’s what happens when websites have to design to please advertisers over pleasing us, the users. Dalton Caldwell makes this point comparing Sourceforge to Github[1]. As ergo says in a comment[2], “If the new news feed is making their advertisers happy (and bringing revenue into Facebook), then that's what they optimize for.” As jfoster says in a comment[3], “Ad-supported models untie the relationship between UX and revenue.”

Furthermore, our identities and privacy are bought and sold to the highest bidders. And where do the bidders get their money? From us of course! A double whammy! We're trading our privacy for free product? Bullshit. We get personalization? Bullshit. Personalization means optimizing something for me, not optimizing for the advertiser. Again, we're not the real customer. We’re certainly not Google’s[4][5].

WAIT. IT'S EVEN WORSE...

Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don’t need. – Tyler Durden, Fight Club

Think of the social costs of advertising. The web is infested with misinformation and manipulation. Beside the lying ads themselves, relying on a revenue stream entirely dependent on how many ads are seen severely affects the moral choices of those who decide what gets produced and how its presented. What are the costs of a misinformed and variously manipulated citizenry, of distortions to the free-market?

Knowledge and discourse are the lifeblood of both democracy, free markets, progress. The web, from the little scammy websites to the big brand ones that so many blindly trust, has a huge influence on who we vote for, what we buy, and most importantly, what we believe.

There is no free lunch, and there is no free web. This "free" ad-"supported" web we have is much too expensive.

[1] http://daltoncaldwell.com/an-audacious-proposal

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7484075

[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7484442

[4] Lloyd made his pitch, proposing a quantum version of Google’s search engine whereby users could make queries and receive results without Google knowing which questions were asked. The men were intrigued. But after conferring with their business manager the next day, Brin and Page informed Lloyd that his scheme went against their business plan. "They want to know everything about everybody who uses their products and services," he joked. - Wired, http://www.wired.com/2013/10/computers-big-data/all/

[5] Google's once famous clean and neutral search results are now cluttered and biased (http://arstechnica.com/business/2013/10/new-banner-ads-push-...).

Re: Show HN: Where Adblock+ injects 20K CSS rules, HTTPSB injects one

#153
post #30

HTTPSB just isn't userfriendly enough for me. I run Adblock (not plus though) + Ghostery, and perhaps they use more memory and CPU, but if they do I've never noticed nor cared about it. Their userfriendliness is amazing though. HTTPSB randomly cripples sites, much like NoScript, and I really can't be bothered to deal with that anymore. With Adblock + Ghostery I feel completely in control. If I want to enable the Disq…

I think the point is they can port the code back to ABP so it can benefit from it. It's not a competition.

Re: Show HN: Where Adblock+ injects 20K CSS rules, HTTPSB injects one

#154
post #85
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been clicking around its user interface for a few minutes now, but I can't figure out how to do this.. Is it adding "whitelist *" somewhere or something similar?

Seems like it was the power-button looking icon found in the upper left part of the extension dropdown menu when on an actual page. I expected this to be a part of the extension settings / options, but ah well.

The power button is what I call "hard" allow all, i.e. it turns off completely matrix filtering.

The "all" cell (top left corner of the matrix) is a "soft" allow all, i.e. it allows everything except those hostnames and types of request which are not specifically blacklisted.

Re: Show HN: Where Adblock+ injects 20K CSS rules, HTTPSB injects one

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The salient part is "public space". Websites aren't public space.

A website displays on _my_ computer. I should have more control over that "space" than a "public space", for sure. There's nothing wrong with wanting complete control of how my computer is being used. If the business model of the advertisers requires that they trust that my computer displays their ads then I see it as their fault for misplacing their trust.

> A website displays on _my_ computer. I should have more control over that "space" than a "public space", for sure. There's nothing wrong with wanting complete control of how my computer is being used.

Who cares if it's _your_ computer? It's _their_ product or service you're using, which is offered to you under well-defined terms of use. You're free to not use it if you don't agree with the terms of use.

Let's assume that breaking the terms of use is illegal or immoral. Then how does doing it on _your_ computer absolve you of responsibility? A person's basement is also _his_ private space. Should he have free reign to hold people there against their will? Having a private space doesn't give you carte blanche, especially when other people are involved (e.g. the people who built the products or services you're using).

> If the business model of the advertisers requires that they trust that my computer displays their ads then I see it as their fault for misplacing their trust.

The essence of your argument is that whenever you can screw somebody over and they're powerless to stop you, it's their fault when you screw them over. This is not an argument I'd be proud to make.

By this logic, a local convenience store that hasn't installed security cameras is at fault when you steal from them, because they misplaced their trust in their customers. A woman walking alone at night is at fault when someone attacks her, because she misplaced her trust in society.

By the way, I use AdBlock. But I don't think your attempts at ethically justifying AdBlock hold any water.

Re: Show HN: Where Adblock+ injects 20K CSS rules, HTTPSB injects one

#156
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know (anybody please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this), it's Adblock PLUS that can't be trusted. Adblock (without the plus) is a completely separate project that's much more trustworthy. Adblock PLUS basically usurped Adblock by appending a "plus", making it seem like it's somehow better than Adblock.

It's not like that. A long time ago (2005?) there was an extension for Firefox called "Adblock". Eventually the development of this extension died, and it got forked with the name "Adblock Plus" in 2006 or so. The Adblock you're referring to (the Chrome-only extension, right?) was published in 2009. As you can see, Adblock Plus predates it by 3 years or so.

Good to know, thanks for the correction.

Re: Show HN: Where Adblock+ injects 20K CSS rules, HTTPSB injects one

#157
To reduce the number of filters in Adblock, a simple way is to let it run for a few days with a popular black list such as EasyList. Then open the list in the preferences, sort it by number of hits, and unselect all the filters with 0 hits (there are so many of them, that probably something like 99% of them never get any hits). You can select the filters, and press "Space" to disable them all in one go.

Re: Show HN: Where Adblock+ injects 20K CSS rules, HTTPSB injects one

#158
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we make it difficult for services to be ad funded, perhaps alternative methods of funding will emerge. Perhaps alternative methods of service delivery will emerge too which don't require large companies to build their own data centres (peer to peer, distributed). I don't get rid of ads on my systems because they're annoying. I do it because they introduce massive single points of failure, they add massive centrali…

The problem is that the alternative to ads is a paywall.

The lovely thing about the internet is that there is an ever-increasing horde of people who will put their content out for free. For each purely ad-dependent site that goes, several sites - from free to paid - will take their place.

Re: Show HN: Where Adblock+ injects 20K CSS rules, HTTPSB injects one

#159

Given that advertising pays for a lot of the services we all use, the use of Adblock and similar programs constitutes defection in game theory terms - the more people who do it, the worse off we all are - which means even if you choose to do it yourself (I personally don't), it is against your interests to encourage other people to do it. Also, given that computing is one of very few areas of technology in which our…

Banksy says it best: People are taking the piss out of you everyday. They butt into your life, take a cheap shot at you and then disappear. They leer at you from tall buildings and make you feel small. They make flippant comments from buses that imply you’re not sexy enough and that all the fun is happening somewhere else. They are on TV making your girlfriend feel inadequate. They have access to the most sophisticat…

> Trademarks, intellectual property rights and copyright law […]

> Any advert in a public space [is] yours to take, re-arrange and re-use.

I feel pretty confident in saying AdBlock is not what he had in mind there.

Ironically, you just manipulated his words to your advantage, which is exactly what he advocates in that quote.

Re: Show HN: Where Adblock+ injects 20K CSS rules, HTTPSB injects one

#160

Given that advertising pays for a lot of the services we all use, the use of Adblock and similar programs constitutes defection in game theory terms - the more people who do it, the worse off we all are - which means even if you choose to do it yourself (I personally don't), it is against your interests to encourage other people to do it. Also, given that computing is one of very few areas of technology in which our…

I don't have a problem with advertising; what I have a problem with is the huge increase in page load times with all the third-party garbage loaded. Up to ten additional seconds on some sites, which is preposterous.

I install Adblock because doing so makes web browsing somewhere around five times faster, which means I can finish it sooner and get back to work/play.

My hope is that adblocking will encourage advertisers to come up with better ways to advertise (technologically speaking) rather than synchronous files that prevent some web pages from loading at all on mediocre 3G connections, making life far more frustrating for everyone involved.

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