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Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

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Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#141

Post by Jemaclus »

JimboOmega wrote: post #73

Does the book cover how to get the position in the first place? I've read countless books (Like "The Managers Path" and "Managing Humans"), blog articles, etc, and tried many strategies, but it never seems to happen. Usually for the catch-22 reason of not having managing experience. I've even had past managers they had no worries about me having the skills or knowledge to do it... but it still doesn't happen.

The tactic that worked for me was to bring it up to my boss. I set up a 1:1 with him, and said "In 2-3 years, I want your job. How can I get there?" (and "want your job" obviously means "to do what you do" not literally take their job)

If you have a good manager, they'll set you up for success, working with you to create a roadmap to get from IC to Manager. The steps in between would probably entail taking on larger projects, mentoring others, leading a project with multiple developers on it, and then after demonstrating all of that, you get the promotion.

In my experience, you get the promotion when you're already doing the job. In other words, you do the work and the promotion is recognition of the work you're already doing.

The other thing I'd say is that you don't get what you don't ask for. If you want to be a manager, ask for it. If you want more responsibility, ask for it. If you want better compensation or a new title, ask for it.

Unless you have a FANTASTIC manager, you will never just magically be recognized for your work. They will assume you're happy doing what you're doing and focus on greasing the squeaky wheel. To further your career, you should be a little squeaky. Ask for what you want. If you can't get it now, ask for help getting to that point.

I, as a manager, really appreciate it when someone gives me direction on what they want. Otherwise, I have to guess or try to pull it out of them, and I feel like I'm pulling teeth. It's hugely beneficial for a manager to have proactive direct reports. Be that person.

Good luck.

Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#142

Post by ska »

vi-mode wrote: post #80

OT: for those who have never been in leader/managerial positions: - Leading people is 1000x less fun than coding - Leading people makes your more money than as an avg coder - Leading people too long makes you lose your technical skills slowly - At some age and for most, there's no other option than leading, 'go or grow' - Leading bigger headcounts is comparable to competitive sports 24/7 and shouldn't be underestimat…

On the other hand, an effective leader can

- usually tackle bigger problems/projects than they could ever address as an IC

- make sure their team isn't wasting time on the wrong things

- accelerate the development of inexperienced team members

- make sure that the team is more than the sum of it's parts; hopefully very much more

- avoid getting bogged down on technical details that will not be relevant for long. Some of the skills you had that will atrophy aren't very impactful, just necessary at the moment.

Some people will find those things rewarding, and may not find your 1000x factor at all realistic.

Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#143

Post by vi-mode »

thewanisdown wrote: post #135
Impossible wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the proper way to frame reports? "leaders reporting to me", "managers I manage"?

DNA evidence works well. In all seriousness, I recommend not referring to them as "reports" at all. Call them "My Team", "us", "we". It creates a sense of collective ownership. When talking up, I use specific names, or "the team" to reference tasks or successes, and "I" when we talk about failures. I own what goes wrong, they own what goes right.

Hm, how should this work? If I'd ask you, 'How many direct reports do you have', what would you say? You need to use the term 'direct report' again.

If you fuzzed around with 'my team' while I try to understand you team structure, your direct report count, their profile, which and how many reports they again have, you'd drive me nuts with a fake 'my team' humbleness.

Using the term 'report' is absolutely ok, you shouldn't talk all day long of your reports of course or trying to impressive anyone.

Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#144

Post by [deleted] »

thewanisdown wrote: post #137
vi-mode wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is getting a bit too deep now. I didn't say that I didn't enjoy it. I like challenges, my initial notion was just to express that words like 'fun' are far away from what leadership is. Btw, you didn't answer the question if you led 100+ people for a longer time. Besides and no offense, military, authoritative leadership styles might not be the right approach in tech environments (like those where engineers work)…

Quite a few years running teams up to 300, now about 3000.

[deleted]

Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#145

Post by GnarfGnarf »

vi-mode wrote: post #80

OT: for those who have never been in leader/managerial positions: - Leading people is 1000x less fun than coding - Leading people makes your more money than as an avg coder - Leading people too long makes you lose your technical skills slowly - At some age and for most, there's no other option than leading, 'go or grow' - Leading bigger headcounts is comparable to competitive sports 24/7 and shouldn't be underestimat…

Right on. I'm 71, self-employed, successfully evaded management, have coded all my life and would never have done otherwise.

I have managed fellow coders, but always had my hands in the coding jar. I continue to innovate, and hope to be coding the week I shuffle off this mortal coil.

Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#146

Post by 0xdeadbeefbabe »

chillydawg wrote: post #105
Aperocky wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are your opinions on autonomous team members? I understand that organization is important, but is it possible to have an organization with minimum red tape by setting goals and let team autonomously execute? Would that reduce management burden?

In an org of any non trivial size, no it won't work and it will increase management burden long term because it will damage things. As teams grow, supervision and communication get non linearly harder and less efficient. If you give some rogue the root keys and carte blanche, they may well get sh*t done but will also, almost certainly, cause a lot of problems for others. Discipline, good hiring practice and clear goa…

I don't see much discipline, good hiring practice, or clear goals in history. Why would it suddenly help now?

Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#147

Post by vi-mode »

GnarfGnarf wrote: post #145
vi-mode wrote: post #80

OT: for those who have never been in leader/managerial positions: - Leading people is 1000x less fun than coding - Leading people makes your more money than as an avg coder - Leading people too long makes you lose your technical skills slowly - At some age and for most, there's no other option than leading, 'go or grow' - Leading bigger headcounts is comparable to competitive sports 24/7 and shouldn't be underestimat…

Right on. I'm 71, self-employed, successfully evaded management, have coded all my life and would never have done otherwise. I have managed fellow coders, but always had my hands in the coding jar. I continue to innovate, and hope to be coding the week I shuffle off this mortal coil.

Wow, what's your stack?

Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#148

Post by maerF0x0 »

redleader9345 wrote: post #72

Warning ... cynical, pessimistic viewpoint coming. Here is a pattern that I've observed over a few jobs that I've held as a developer at different companies. Wondering if anyone has any similar experience. The first line manager (only manages individual contributors) exhibits these characteristics. 1.)He used to be a coder, but that was a long time ago. SQL hasn't changed, so that's the bit he's drawn to when he feel…

This gave me a laugh

> pay parody

Definitely at a startup.

Most of us would be looking for pay _parity_ :)

Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#149

Post by ry_ry »

redleader9345 wrote: post #72

Warning ... cynical, pessimistic viewpoint coming. Here is a pattern that I've observed over a few jobs that I've held as a developer at different companies. Wondering if anyone has any similar experience. The first line manager (only manages individual contributors) exhibits these characteristics. 1.)He used to be a coder, but that was a long time ago. SQL hasn't changed, so that's the bit he's drawn to when he feel…

I get that you were being deliberately a wee bit provocative, but If you honestly believed that of every manager you had, you would have been a horrible co-worker.

Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#150

Post by radiator »

vi-mode wrote: post #114
thewanisdown wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a different mindset, but I still think it's fun. For me, the key with that size of a group was focusing on the development of the leaders under me. When I make sure they are set up for success, things go smoothly. The hardest time in my life was trying to micromanage a large group. Once you let go, and focus on the bigger picture, it's quite fun. Challenging, for sure, but very fun.

Hint: you should never frame your reports in such a way ('leaders under me'), 101 of leadership; but let's move on: I think we are not talking about the same; managing people has no short-term feedback loops like coding, it can be fun yes but many confuse this fun with the status involved; from a rational perspective and with the experience of heading larger headcounts (did you lead 100+ teams for a longer time?) pai…

I for one think the expression 'leaders under me' is clear, accurate and inoffensive to anyone.
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