Show HN: Hire an Oldster • Hacker News Board

Re: Show HN: Hire an Oldster

#141

Post by divbit » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 9:01 PM UTC

vvanders wrote: post #76

HCIdivision17 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a weird experience if you're a clever youngster. I liken it to speed vs torque. I have to rely on being fast and being able to scan a problem as fast as I can to understand it. But an older engineer will just know the lay of the land. I had this happen a lot with an older electrical engineer. He seemed slow and I looked to run circles around everyone, but he could point to things as a root cause before I even un…

Yup, I worked with some grey-beards in the GPU space and holy shit did they know their stuff, root causes and the like. My experience mirrored yours almost exactly. The best ones are also pretty enthusiastic to share and educate. This group was very much like that and I'm incredibly grateful for all the things I learned.

>root causes Maybe years of tracking down bugs has a payoff

Re: Show HN: Hire an Oldster

#142

Post by ap22213 » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 9:02 PM UTC

aresant wrote: post #42

If you take a survey of hiring managers they will point to three primary reasons that candidates 40 - 60 have a harder time finding jobs: 1) They are typically more expensive than "market" for the same role a younger person can fulfill at acceptable tradeoff of competency - higher salaries, higher related costs like healthcare for a family, expectations around retirement programs, etc. 2) They are less flexible - the…

My CTO likes to hire cheap. 90% of the time he passes over more experienced candidates for those with only 0-4 years of experience. He says it's because of the big cost savings.

But, internally, we think it's very short-sighted and a waste. Almost always, the less experienced candidate has to be guided. They rarely have sufficient experience to be full-stack, and over half of the time they are on the average learning curve. That means that they're only 0-50% on the way to mastery. And, that has the unintended consequence of dragging down the productivity of everyone.

Worse, they come in with very strong opinions and aren't pragmatists. They lack understanding of trade offs, because that flexibility comes only from years of this work.

I suspect that the CTO (and many like him) likes to hire people who know less than him (i.e. B players). Luckily, I don't report to the CTO.

Re: Show HN: Hire an Oldster

#143

Post by edblarney » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 9:03 PM UTC

Obviously, all good intentions ... but the very title of this, and insinuations therein ... are really negative and creepy. I think there may possibly be more harm than good being done here.

Re: Show HN: Hire an Oldster

#144

Post by magnumkarter » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 9:03 PM UTC

I used to worked for a startup where the CTO and CEO were older in their 40s and didn't hire people over 30 because they weren't a "culture fit". I was constantly asked what my age was (I look a bit older). The team clocked 60+ work weeks for a product that was barely progressing. The CTO was so work obsessed that he got married to his pregnant fiancee in the morning and came back in the afternoon to make up work.

Thankfully for my next job, while the staff is still older, they work smart instead working hard.

Re: Show HN: Hire an Oldster

#145

Post by jayd3e » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 9:07 PM UTC

magnumkarter wrote: post #144

I used to worked for a startup where the CTO and CEO were older in their 40s and didn't hire people over 30 because they weren't a "culture fit". I was constantly asked what my age was (I look a bit older). The team clocked 60+ work weeks for a product that was barely progressing. The CTO was so work obsessed that he got married to his pregnant fiancee in the morning and came back in the afternoon to make up work. Th…

That story about the CTO getting married in the morning and going back to work is cringeworthy...

Re: Show HN: Hire an Oldster

#146

Post by edblarney » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 9:07 PM UTC

maerF0x0 wrote: post #82

aresant wrote: post #42

If you take a survey of hiring managers they will point to three primary reasons that candidates 40 - 60 have a harder time finding jobs: 1) They are typically more expensive than "market" for the same role a younger person can fulfill at acceptable tradeoff of competency - higher salaries, higher related costs like healthcare for a family, expectations around retirement programs, etc. 2) They are less flexible - the…

> unwilling to run the same 60 hour gauntlet that a 25 year old _can_ etc. Older people _can_ run 60 hour gauntlets. We're just wise enough to know that it leads to no good outcome.

"We're just wise enough to know that it leads to no good outcome."

I'm middle aged, working with some very young people right now, and I'm having an epiphany, because they are running around like chickens with their heads cut-toff, and I see there's no reason for it, they are equating 'sweat and crunch' with 'value' and making all sorts of mistakes. The epiphany is: they remind me exactly of me at that age!

And they won't take any advice. I mightn't have either ... though I did definitely respect my managers ... and they have none ...

These problems are particularly pernicious when the younger teams have no upper management, or have never worked in larger organizations.

Hopefully, we are starting to realize the value of older devs in some situations and can respect their abilities wherein they are valuable.

Re: Show HN: Hire an Oldster

#147

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 9:11 PM UTC

maerF0x0 wrote: post #82

aresant wrote: post #42

If you take a survey of hiring managers they will point to three primary reasons that candidates 40 - 60 have a harder time finding jobs: 1) They are typically more expensive than "market" for the same role a younger person can fulfill at acceptable tradeoff of competency - higher salaries, higher related costs like healthcare for a family, expectations around retirement programs, etc. 2) They are less flexible - the…

> unwilling to run the same 60 hour gauntlet that a 25 year old _can_ etc. Older people _can_ run 60 hour gauntlets. We're just wise enough to know that it leads to no good outcome.

[deleted]

Re: Show HN: Hire an Oldster

#148

Post by vvanders » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 9:13 PM UTC

Benjammer wrote: post #91

suprgeek wrote: post #74

As an oldster - two things that I really wish my younger self would have intimately realized. 1) As a software person your are employed to Solve Business Problems - NOT to write code, NOT to write tests, NOT to hack on platforms, NOT to be Agile. Solve the problem (or add the feature) - never lose sight of this. The value you bring is directly related to this. 2) People outside software development don't give a flyin…

>As a software person your are employed to Solve Business Problems - NOT to write code, NOT to write tests, NOT to hack on platforms, NOT to be Agile. Solve the problem (or add the feature) - never lose sight of this. The value you bring is directly related to this. My chemical engineering degree really instilled this idea in me early on, and it's by far the biggest motivating factor as to why I love to work at softw…

That's a wonderful perspective. One thing I feel that's really missing from our field is some of the traditional engineering learnings and approaches from other industries.

Nothing made me scoff at the idea of a "Software Engineer" more than when I started digging into some of the EE stuff. When you have a $1M tape out that goes wrong if one transistor is miswired.

I just throw crap at the wall and see what sticks, EE and stuff like that is real engineering.

Re: Show HN: Hire an Oldster

#149

Post by jayd3e » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 9:13 PM UTC

edblarney wrote: post #143

Obviously, all good intentions ... but the very title of this, and insinuations therein ... are really negative and creepy. I think there may possibly be more harm than good being done here.

I would agree with this. They need to get re-branded and completely ignore the accusations of ageism in the industry, and instead just focus on finding high quality mentors with many years of experience, who will all be older.

Re: Show HN: Hire an Oldster

#150

Post by andrewflnr » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 9:14 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #57

aresant wrote: post #42

If you take a survey of hiring managers they will point to three primary reasons that candidates 40 - 60 have a harder time finding jobs: 1) They are typically more expensive than "market" for the same role a younger person can fulfill at acceptable tradeoff of competency - higher salaries, higher related costs like healthcare for a family, expectations around retirement programs, etc. 2) They are less flexible - the…

I look at the skillset between when I was 25 and now (30) and it's astounding. I can't imagine what the difference between 50 and 25 will be. If you're hiring 40-60 year olds you cannot simply hire a 25 year old and get an "acceptable tradeoff of competency" unless you didn't need anything close to that competency in the first place. Also if you're 50 and are relying on a new job's retirement program you're probably…

I was with you until the straw man in the last sentence. No one here is suggesting that age "precludes" you from understanding modern marketing media, only that it's less likely. Whether that's true or not is a question of actual data, not broad statements about ageism.