I always wanted Apple to make a split keyboard. Then I realized I could just buy two Magic Keyboards and use them at the same time -- typing on the left half of the left one, and the right half of the right one. After all, the proper ergonomic position is for your forearms to be parallel (not angled inward), which means the keyboard halves you're using should be approximately shoulder-width apart, so there's tons of…
Show HN: Bayleaf – Building a low-profile wireless split keyboard
131–140 of 259 posts
Re: Show HN: Bayleaf – Building a low-profile wireless split keyboard
#132Personal opinion, but I really don’t get low-profile keyboards. I always need a foam cushion for my palms, which means that a normal profile always feels best for me. Low feels too low with a cushion, and yet still feels too high without one.
I know what you mean, but there's also a big difference between key height and keyboard height. There's also a common misconception that it's ergonomic to angle a keyboard "upward" (elevating the back of the keyboard), when correct ergonomics is actually to angle the keyboard downwards (elevate the front). See if you have a long object a little shorter than your foam cushion that you can scotch tape to the bottom of…
you can easily find MX switches that have equal or +- 0.5mm travel lenght as low-profiles ones... which considering how thin PCB (and even handwired) flat keyboards are, i can't see the point unless you are supporting your arms in the same table your keyboard is! i rather have my arms floating so i can use shoulder and elbow movement for distant keys other than wrist movements but who cares :P
[0] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00036...
Re: Show HN: Bayleaf – Building a low-profile wireless split keyboard
#133For next iteration, consider integrating trackpads? Moving to the mouse and back is pain enough that people go all-in on keyboard-only interfaces. I velcroed a trackpad to the middle of a Kinesis Advantage. Now I use either hand for the mouse, and even stretch a finger or thumb to the pad without leaving the keys. The movement is little different from using the keyboard. But for split keyboard, you'd need one trackpa…
Re: Show HN: Bayleaf – Building a low-profile wireless split keyboard
#134Earlier quoted context omitted.
I know what you mean, but there's also a big difference between key height and keyboard height. There's also a common misconception that it's ergonomic to angle a keyboard "upward" (elevating the back of the keyboard), when correct ergonomics is actually to angle the keyboard downwards (elevate the front). See if you have a long object a little shorter than your foam cushion that you can scotch tape to the bottom of…
keyboard upward or downward angulation depends on your wrist support, arm position/chair height... what's optimal and generic to suggest because how our upper extremity muscles are, (at least for mouse but i think it can work for keyboards too) [0] is having it sides angled from 20° up to 30°, subjective exprience also plays a role you can easily find MX switches that have equal or +- 0.5mm travel lenght as low-profi…
It doesn't. But to clarify: it should always be downwards relative to your forearm. And your forearm should be generally be about horizontal (or a little bit downwards is OK too).
A keyboard that is angled upwards puts constant strain on the top of your wrist. There are no circumstances where this is a good thing (assuming you don't have injury/disability that requires other accommodations).
Also, your link is about mice not keyboards, and about angling mice sideways. It has no relevance to angling keyboards up/down. (But yes, "vertical" mice, that are angled in reality, are much better too.)
Re: Show HN: Bayleaf – Building a low-profile wireless split keyboard
#135The grid layout makes this look so futuristic (and anime [1]). It looks very cool, though I wonder how long it'd take to get used to one, having only ever typed on staggered layouts. [1] https://gifer.com/es/BFCV
In my case, going from a regular keyboard to a split one like he Raise[1] took me 10 minutes of adaption time. My second split one was (is) a columnar (the Defy[2]), and I must confess that the adaption time was something like three days. Mostly because I kept failing to correctly push a few keys (like the C). Now I can indistinctly work with a columnar or a stagged one with zero problem. In fact, I usually use both types many days.
That said, I thought that the change would make me feel more comfortable, but to be honest in my case the difference is not big at all.
Re: Show HN: Bayleaf – Building a low-profile wireless split keyboard
#136Earlier quoted context omitted.
keyboard upward or downward angulation depends on your wrist support, arm position/chair height... what's optimal and generic to suggest because how our upper extremity muscles are, (at least for mouse but i think it can work for keyboards too) [0] is having it sides angled from 20° up to 30°, subjective exprience also plays a role you can easily find MX switches that have equal or +- 0.5mm travel lenght as low-profi…
> keyboard upward or downward angulation depends on... It doesn't. But to clarify: it should always be downwards relative to your forearm . And your forearm should be generally be about horizontal (or a little bit downwards is OK too). A keyboard that is angled upwards puts constant strain on the top of your wrist. There are no circumstances where this is a good thing (assuming you don't have injury/disability that r…
> Also, your link is about mice not keyboards, and about angling mice sideways
the author points out another research, i should have linked it instead of that one [1]... but it's about the ideal slanted angle considering how our muscles are structured; the author even cites that suggestions as something not taking relative preferences, which is totally fair as some people may use their computers for a short time in very awkward positions and that's fine
[0] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S10506...
[1] yet about mouse but please take your time to read what's was typed in the paper regarding the slant angle suggestion -- https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S02680...
Re: Show HN: Bayleaf – Building a low-profile wireless split keyboard
#137Earlier quoted context omitted.
> keyboard upward or downward angulation depends on... It doesn't. But to clarify: it should always be downwards relative to your forearm . And your forearm should be generally be about horizontal (or a little bit downwards is OK too). A keyboard that is angled upwards puts constant strain on the top of your wrist. There are no circumstances where this is a good thing (assuming you don't have injury/disability that r…
various resources from universities recommend having your forearm angled between 90-120°, which if it's > 90°, an front angulation doesn't make sense at all... [0] > Also, your link is about mice not keyboards, and about angling mice sideways the author points out another research, i should have linked it instead of that one [1]... but it's about the ideal slanted angle considering how our muscles are structured; the…
That's what I said ("your forearm should be generally be about horizontal (or a little bit downwards is OK too)"). Never upward.
> which if it's > 90°, an front angulation doesn't make sense at all.
If you want a 10° downwards angle on the keyboard relative to your forearm and your forearm is 5° upwards, then your keyboard still needs 5° downward relative to your desk. If your desk is so high that your forearms are angled up 20° from the horizontal, then something is extremely wrong with your chair/desk height.
And your first link supports exactly what I wrote:
> The natural position of your hands with respect to the relative vertical position at the wrist is along the plane or below it (i.e. you want the tips of your fingers to be at the same height as your wrist or preferably slightly lower). When your hand rises above this plane (making the hand signal for 'STOP'), this is called dorsiflexion or wrist extension. This greatly reduces blood flow through the wrist and can quickly cause pain, fatigue and numbness. Most keyboards have a 'foot' located at the back of the keyboard which is not desirable as it creates a positively inclined keyboarding surface. Many articulating arms offer the option of a negative inclination, which will make the entire work surface slope away from you, ensuring that your hands are not 'bent' upward at the wrist.
And I don't know why you've added another link about sideways mouse slant. That has nothing to do with up-down keyboard/arm angle. If there's some relevant sentence in it, please quote it, because I can find nothing relevant in the publicly available text.
You ask me to "please take your time to read" -- I suggest you take the time to re-read your own first link. It makes clear there is no situation where a keyboard angled upwards (the back of the keyboard elevated) is good ergonomics -- exactly what I said.
Re: Show HN: Bayleaf – Building a low-profile wireless split keyboard
#138Re: Show HN: Bayleaf – Building a low-profile wireless split keyboard
#139Earlier quoted context omitted.
various resources from universities recommend having your forearm angled between 90-120°, which if it's > 90°, an front angulation doesn't make sense at all... [0] > Also, your link is about mice not keyboards, and about angling mice sideways the author points out another research, i should have linked it instead of that one [1]... but it's about the ideal slanted angle considering how our muscles are structured; the…
> recommend having your forearm angled between 90-120° That's what I said ("your forearm should be generally be about horizontal (or a little bit downwards is OK too)"). Never upward. > which if it's > 90°, an front angulation doesn't make sense at all. If you want a 10° downwards angle on the keyboard relative to your forearm and your forearm is 5° upwards, then your keyboard still needs 5° downward relative to your…
on the 2° paper, > Among the five tested mice, the 25° or 30° slanted mice caused lower muscle activity and more neutral working postures for ECU, Trap and PT muscles.
these muscles are also used during keyboard usage. slant angle is always suggested on ergonomic research, as our arms muscles are tensioned/twisted when using a flat keyboard/mouse... you can easily find research pointing slant angle on ergonomic keyboards but the research i pointed out is interesting as the author actually studied which is the optimal angle based on our anatomy (there's tension/forces on greater slant angles to maintain the posture, as there aren't surfaces to support our hand) and not on individual preference
Re: Show HN: Bayleaf – Building a low-profile wireless split keyboard
#140Earlier quoted context omitted.
> recommend having your forearm angled between 90-120° That's what I said ("your forearm should be generally be about horizontal (or a little bit downwards is OK too)"). Never upward. > which if it's > 90°, an front angulation doesn't make sense at all. If you want a 10° downwards angle on the keyboard relative to your forearm and your forearm is 5° upwards, then your keyboard still needs 5° downward relative to your…
you are right, i always considered the front of the keyboard what you considered the back, sorry for this (and by the way, i changed the link to a more generic one citing the variation of 90° -> 120° i typed of one easily finding by surfing the internet) on the 2° paper, > Among the five tested mice, the 25° or 30° slanted mice caused lower muscle activity and more neutral working postures for ECU, Trap and PT muscle…
And yes -- slanting the keyboard that way is usually called keyboard tenting. Also highly recommended, but difficult to implement in practice because it requires an even lower base for the keyboard, and there aren't many good accessories out there for it, sadly...
I'm still waiting for someone to sell a cheap kit for angling keyboards downwards and implementing tenting. It's kind of complex to do both at once...