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Show HN: Made this with my daughter to help kids ages 2 to 4 learn logic

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Re: Show HN: Made this with my daughter to help kids ages 2 to 4 learn logic

#131

Post by IggleSniggle »

jbc1 wrote: post #103
IggleSniggle wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's different because when you are asked a question about "the cats" and you can see the cats in question, you presume that you are only being asked about that which is displayed in front of you. But when you are asked a question about something that is not displayed in front of you, then you do not presume that what you see is the entirety of evidence, because you are being asked about something for which what you…

If the question comes out of nowhere, like some guy runs up and asks you while you're walking down the street, I agree. This question however comes within the context that they're looking at cats on the screen. Unless they get zero cats as their answer for the very first question they play, then the context tells them "cats shown here".

It's a necessarily pedantic argument because of how the question is phrased. There was a suggestion as to how the phrasing could be improved to make it clearer.

None of the blue cats are shown here, so we don't have any information to answer a question about them.

If we were previously shown 5 blue cats and none were bouncing, then "5" could seem like the valid answer. If you assume that there is no memory element to the game (which is a weird assumption when teaching), then it's only because there is no option to select "there's not enough info" that "zero" can contextually become the right answer.

I guess I'm still a little bit salty about being asked these kinds of imprecise questions on high-stakes standardized tests that are supposedly testing you on your own precision and accuracy. I remember running into questions that had more than one valid answer because of imprecise wording, at which point the test becomes "what did the test writer intend" instead of "what did the test writer ask."

Re: Show HN: Made this with my daughter to help kids ages 2 to 4 learn logic

#132

Post by ech085 »

stakhanov wrote: post #124
tmerr wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might be corrupted by programming because it doesn't bother me when I hear a vacuously true claim like "All flying horses are three-legged". My mental model corresponds to Python's definition of "all": def all(xs, predicate): for x in xs: if not predicate(x): return False return True Similarly, def any(xs, predicate): for x in xs: if predicate(x): return True return False You say "Ex falso quodlibet" which makes it…

...that's what I mean when I say that computer scientists have been trained to think about certain aspects of logic in a way that doesn't come natural to people and leads to conclusions that almost anybody finds counterintuitive who isn't a computer scientist (like "All flying horses are three-legged"). ...it comes down to how you represent natural language quantifiers in logic. The semantics of "All men are mortal."…

OP here, thanks for the thoughtful discussion :)

I'll think about this some more and see if some design decisions can improve the game with regards to "existential import". Thanks for introducing that concept by the way.

My feeling about this when developing the game with my daughter was that when playing a game, you are taking part in a game universe. If there were a reference to flying horses, the inference would instead be "there must be flying horses in this game". The generative gameplay which is creating cats with random attributes also suggests that blue, bouncing cats are likely to exist but just aren't pictured on the screen presently.

In early education (even undergraduate education) it's common to present a simplified model that in some cases contradicts other models, and developing the cognitive machinery to explore and understand the model one working within, its limits, and how it relates to other models may be more valuable than comparing which models better align with objective (or, academic) truth.

At least, this is the thought process I went through with some of the trade-offs about deciding what answer was most correct from the lens of various formalisms (in my limited exposure to those) versus what answer leads to the richest learning in the age-group.

Re: Show HN: Made this with my daughter to help kids ages 2 to 4 learn logic

#133

Post by ech085 »

overlordalex wrote: post #36

I was not prepared for the text-to-speech blaring out at maximum volume without warning. I was further not prepared for "mute site" in chrome having no effect. Does anyone have any advice for blocking this behaviour on a global level? Just a warning for future explorers

Thanks for the heads up, added this warning to the home screen.

"Warning: the game will speak out loud (since young kids cannot read the questions), so check your volume."

Re: Show HN: Made this with my daughter to help kids ages 2 to 4 learn logic

#134

Post by halma »

I made a [fork](https://github.com/ahalma/cats-of-jasnah) that allows for some internationalization. Now you can play the game in Dutch or Spanish as well (or extend it for your own mother tongue).

You can set the language via an URL parameter:

https://ahalma.github.io/cats-of-jasnah/index.html?lang=es

Re: Show HN: Made this with my daughter to help kids ages 2 to 4 learn logic

#135

Post by ech085 »

tom_mellior wrote: post #16

I think the digits should be arranged 0 to 9, not 1 to 9 followed by 0. Because 0 is less than 1. Also, when the correct answer is revealed, it would be great to somehow highlight the cats that are actually described by the formula. Yes, this is hard for 0. Also, the animations feel too fast to me. I find they make the whole thing stressful, somehow. ALSO, when a wrong answer is given, the question disappears! That's…

The first 2 items are fixed, thanks for the feedback!

Re: Show HN: Made this with my daughter to help kids ages 2 to 4 learn logic

#136

Post by ech085 »

Arnavion wrote: post #6

Nice. The source is also very readable so I imagine it would also be useful to teach an older child about programming. I hit a bug though - level 7 generated a "how many cats are spinning" question whose answer is 10, but there's no "10" button and trying to type "1" "0" fails at the first "1". But I see `cats_for_level` allows there to be `level + 5` cats, so is there some way to input an answer greater than 9? Also…

The bug is fixed, thanks for pointing this out!

Re: Show HN: Made this with my daughter to help kids ages 2 to 4 learn logic

#138

Post by tlarkworthy »

jecxjo wrote: post #17
tlarkworthy wrote: post #8

Can ur kids read numbers?

My two year old can read numbers up to 10. It takes a little while to go from the symbol to the amount but generally speaking she can do it. It's typically around 2 where you can start to learn letters and numbers and basic counting.

My twin 4 year olds could play the game no problem, but they cannot read numbers well so they just counted from the left. Turns out they knew 1-3 already, picked up 0 fast as it was the odd one out. I have not pushed numbers very much, they know more of the alphabet. I am not sure whether I should teach them numbers, I kind of think letting school do that might be better, but your comment has made me think a bit more.

Re: Show HN: Made this with my daughter to help kids ages 2 to 4 learn logic

#139

Post by paggle »

doctorOb wrote: post #11
paggle wrote: post #9

Kids of 2 to 4 shouldn’t be using screens.

My friend has worked in a number of different pre-school facilities throughout Boston and most of them had a carved out screen based activity (usually tablets) for at least part of the day. I'm sure the science is still out but in practice it seems ubiquitous.

That’s a perk for the teachers who can relax or get the next activity ready while the kids zone out, not done in the direct interests of the children.

Re: Show HN: Made this with my daughter to help kids ages 2 to 4 learn logic

#140

Post by paggle »

rebuilder wrote: post #26
paggle wrote: post #9

Kids of 2 to 4 shouldn’t be using screens.

Why is that? Is a coloring game on a tablet damaging? Is a coloring book not?

A coloring book teaches a billion times what a coloring app can teach. How materials feel, how to use haptic feedback to not break a crayon, how objects create sound as they touch, how different materials interact (eg pencil vs crayon), how friction changes based on force normal to the surface, how materials hardness affects abrasion and changes the shape of the crayon, how different items have different colors and how these can transfer between materials, etc...

Kids 2 to 4 should not be using screens. They have too much to learn.

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