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Show HN: How I topped the HuggingFace open LLM leaderboard on two gaming GPUs

dnhkng.github.io

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Re: Show HN: How I topped the HuggingFace open LLM leaderboard on two gaming GPUs

#121
I found this super interesting! Excellent writing! And I loved the cowboy quote, that was the best part; poor thing.

Now it's making me wonder - instead of smashing things together more violently for MoE type stuff, perhaps it's more effective to create better toolsets to allow us to analyse smaller models.

Then small models can be trained (faster & cheaper) to be excellent at very specific tasks or domains, the toolset used to identify the organ and organ selection layers, a larger Frankenstein's monster model can be stitched together from these organs with perhaps a little extra training/fine-tuning to improve its organ selection abilities.

That makes me imagine some sort of future of layer standardisation, in which for a standard and optimal architecture sets of layers can be dynamically downloaded, added, swapped out etc to maintain fastest inference speed whilst allowing for flexible skills. Almost like the concept of subagents but within the architecture of the model itself. Hmmm.

I'm only versed in transformer architecture at a high level, does anybody know of any architectures where the layers branch & then coalesce like that? Or is it majority linear layer by layer?

Re: Show HN: How I topped the HuggingFace open LLM leaderboard on two gaming GPUs

#122

This is fascinating. The fact that only ~7 layer blocks work and not fewer/more really suggests there are emergent functional units in the transformer stack that we don't fully understand yet. Almost like "organs" in the network. Have you tried this on architectures other than Qwen, like Llama or Mistral? Curious if the magic block size is architecture-dependent or if 7 layers is some kind of universal constant.

I wouldn't be surprised if even in the same model, the organ block size varied wildly depending on what you're looking for (i.e. his probes).

But if there are sizes that are common, then that could also point to an architectural flaw, because whilst it could be universal constant-ness it could also be bounded by some inner working - and perhaps this is something that could be improved upon.

Re: Show HN: How I topped the HuggingFace open LLM leaderboard on two gaming GPUs

#123
post #63

[flagged]

Yes! I tried that pretty early on, the its basically never good. Its described in the the section: https://dnhkng.github.io/posts/rys/#the-beginning-of-llm-neu...

How about, as you found repeating x-y was useful for locating the block of 7 layers in the first place; I'd be incredibly curious if, knowing that block of 7, if you then iterated from repeating x-y in that block z times.

Like for those 7 layers 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 does efficiency increase if you run 1,2,3,3,4,4,4,5,6,7 or perhaps 1,2,3,3,4,5,6,6,7 etc. If only GPUs grew on trees

Re: Show HN: How I topped the HuggingFace open LLM leaderboard on two gaming GPUs

#124
post #19
post #3

I am not really an ml dev so I don't understand most of it. It does sound ridiculous how it would even work work. Brilliant work and great article I enjoyed reading it This sounds similar to the Kimi's mixture of experts architecture if I understood it correctly(likely I have not), can you comment on this ?

No worries, happy to discuss anyway :) MoE (mixture of experts), is an architecture that forces sparsity (not all 'neurons' are active during the forward pass. This is pretty much orthogonal to that; it works with dense and MoE models, by repeating 'vertical' sections of the transformer stack.

>forces sparsity

That's branching and then coalescing, right? It selects a path that is weighted as being most beneficial to the input?

Given you pointed out how even the vertical part of the architecture allows for skipping layers anyway, isn't that essentially the same thing?

Re: Show HN: How I topped the HuggingFace open LLM leaderboard on two gaming GPUs

#125
dude thats sick! i tried it out and it works. theres a couple layers in there that are part of the voidy block that doesnt do much for the selected answer, so i narrowed it down to L48-53 where this model is mapping out its reasoning strategy, and repeated that twice, i got a big improvement over the original config (i chose some questions from atropos and claude code made some up so idk not like a real dataset).

so thats about %15 more compute per forward pass with 0 extra memory which is just nuts, so for a streaming or disk-based setup its just free better answers. def wasnt gonna think of this myself.

  config               layers   overall    delta          math     reasoning  word problems
  baseline                 80    0.5391  +0.0000        0.5850        0.6357        0.3500
  rys                      87    0.5452  +0.0061        0.6706        0.6000        0.2723
  cartographer_repeat_x2   92    0.7741  +0.2350        0.8455        0.8214        0.6000
looks like the model gets a second/third go at figuring out how to approach the problem and it gets better answers.

i tried a matrix of other configurations and stuff gets totally weird. like playing em through backwards in that block doesnt make much of a difference / order doesnt seem to matter (?!). doubling each layer got a benefit, but if i doubled the layers and doubled that block there was interference. doubling the block where the model is architecting/crystallizing its plans improves reasoning but at the cost of other stuff. other mixes of blocks showed some improvements for certain kinds of prompts but didnt stand out as much.

Re: Show HN: How I topped the HuggingFace open LLM leaderboard on two gaming GPUs

#126

dude thats sick! i tried it out and it works. theres a couple layers in there that are part of the voidy block that doesnt do much for the selected answer, so i narrowed it down to L48-53 where this model is mapping out its reasoning strategy, and repeated that twice, i got a big improvement over the original config (i chose some questions from atropos and claude code made some up so idk not like a real dataset). so…

Glad to see someone replicate the results already :)

Re: Show HN: How I topped the HuggingFace open LLM leaderboard on two gaming GPUs

#127
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes! I tried that pretty early on, the its basically never good. Its described in the the section: https://dnhkng.github.io/posts/rys/#the-beginning-of-llm-neu...

How about, as you found repeating x-y was useful for locating the block of 7 layers in the first place; I'd be incredibly curious if, knowing that block of 7, if you then iterated from repeating x-y in that block z times. Like for those 7 layers 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 does efficiency increase if you run 1,2,3,3,4,4,4,5,6,7 or perhaps 1,2,3,3,4,5,6,6,7 etc. If only GPUs grew on trees

Yes, I have done these thype of experiments; thats for the next post

Re: Show HN: How I topped the HuggingFace open LLM leaderboard on two gaming GPUs

#128
post #126

dude thats sick! i tried it out and it works. theres a couple layers in there that are part of the voidy block that doesnt do much for the selected answer, so i narrowed it down to L48-53 where this model is mapping out its reasoning strategy, and repeated that twice, i got a big improvement over the original config (i chose some questions from atropos and claude code made some up so idk not like a real dataset). so…

Glad to see someone replicate the results already :)

im kind of wondering like what the ceiling would be on reasoning for something like the 1.5T models with the repeating technique, but they would take a long time to download. i think if you have them already it would take maybe an hour or so to check against a swath of prompts. whats the reasoningest open model at the moment?

my guess is that large models trained on large corpuses there is just some ceiling of "reasoning you can do" given the internal geometry implied by the training data, cause text is lossy and low-bandwidth anyway, and theres only really so much of it. past some point you just have to have models learning from real-world interactions and my guess is we're already kind of there.

Re: Show HN: How I topped the HuggingFace open LLM leaderboard on two gaming GPUs

#129
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glad to see someone replicate the results already :)

im kind of wondering like what the ceiling would be on reasoning for something like the 1.5T models with the repeating technique, but they would take a long time to download. i think if you have them already it would take maybe an hour or so to check against a swath of prompts. whats the reasoningest open model at the moment? my guess is that large models trained on large corpuses there is just some ceiling of "reaso…

I stick with models I can run on VRAM, but DeepSeek Speciale have the best reasoning capabilities of the models I can actually run (https://huggingface.co/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-V3.2-Speciale). What hardware can you access?

I have Deepseek etc, but inferencing on DDR5 would take about 2-3 weeks for a simple scan. I think this works best with dense models, but it also seems ok with MoE.

@everyone: Can someone hook me up with Nvidia sponsorship?

Re: Show HN: How I topped the HuggingFace open LLM leaderboard on two gaming GPUs

#130
By far one of the most interesting blogs I’ve read in a long while. I’m curious if you could combine this with Karpathy’s auto research to find the best combination of layer duplication. The callout to model merging in 2024 was funny… around that time I became friendly with RomboDawg on HF who had the best merged coding models around and created a couple of Frankenstein models myself.

I say this naively as I’m not that familiar with how transformers work under the hood, but I wonder if you could combine the two approaches in a coherent way. Frankenmerges were often down naively just smooshing things together, but knowing how the layers work under the hood I wonder if there’s a more intelligent way to combine merging and layer duplication to create even better performers.

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