Show HN: An app that helps engineers fight back against pointless meetings • Hacker News Board

Re: Show HN: An app that helps engineers fight back against pointless meetings

#121

Post by nine_zeros » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 7:07 PM UTC

dreamer7 wrote: post #107

ryandrake wrote: post #25

This always seems to be such a controversial view here, but if you think a meeting is pointless and that you have nothing to gain from it or contribute to it, just don't go. We're all grown-ups at work, and are ultimately responsible for our own productivity. Be prepared to articulate exactly why you feel some other use of your time is more appropriate, in case someone asks, but nobody is holding a gun to your head t…

As someone who has done this, I can tell that it's not easy to justify. In my previous company, there were two teams, one in India and the other in US, working on a project. Each team had a scrum master and a daily morning scrum call. The India team was expected to attend the US team's scrum call as well. This made no sense to me as I already provided updates in the Indian scrum call. So I made it clear that we shoul…

Good job. Fuck scrum masters who just want to show that they are running a meeting for 2x the number of people.

Re: Show HN: An app that helps engineers fight back against pointless meetings

#122

Post by BrissyCoder » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 7:13 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #25

This always seems to be such a controversial view here, but if you think a meeting is pointless and that you have nothing to gain from it or contribute to it, just don't go. We're all grown-ups at work, and are ultimately responsible for our own productivity. Be prepared to articulate exactly why you feel some other use of your time is more appropriate, in case someone asks, but nobody is holding a gun to your head t…

This seems like the last place that that view would be considered controversial.

Re: Show HN: An app that helps engineers fight back against pointless meetings

#123

Post by megablast » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 7:27 PM UTC

anontwitteruser wrote: post #119

junga wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, 90 minutes. That‘s mind boggling. How many people do attend these daily meetings? I guess there‘s only a few persons using most of the time for their talking?

The entire team...

So 5 people?? We have no idea how big your team is.

Re: Show HN: An app that helps engineers fight back against pointless meetings

#124

Post by ipnon » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 7:27 PM UTC

stronglikedan wrote: post #110

sdevonoes wrote: post #109

There was a time when I used to say "What? Another pointless meeting? Oh c'mon that just distracts me from working on features/writing code!". I don't say that anymore. I'm fine with useless meetings because: - it's work time. I don't really mind how I spend my working hours. It's 8h and no more (well, with WFH, it's more like 5h or so, but the point stands) - if the meeting is pointless, I just disconnect. So, the m…

> I don't really mind how I spend my working hours. Must be nice to not have hard deadlines while on salary.

This is an emergent property of social organizations over a certain size, say the Dunbar number, I claim. The organization has its own eye, and cannot look in all directions at once. Some of its members will be able to hide.

Re: Show HN: An app that helps engineers fight back against pointless meetings

#125

Post by filoleg » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 7:40 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #25

This always seems to be such a controversial view here, but if you think a meeting is pointless and that you have nothing to gain from it or contribute to it, just don't go. We're all grown-ups at work, and are ultimately responsible for our own productivity. Be prepared to articulate exactly why you feel some other use of your time is more appropriate, in case someone asks, but nobody is holding a gun to your head t…

> if you think a meeting is pointless and that you have nothing to gain from it or contribute to it, just don't go.

Or, even better, normalize showing up to a meeting, and if you feel like it is useless/irrelevant to you after 10 minutes, just stand up and leave. You never know ahead of time if the meeting would be useless for you or not (ok, in a lot of cases you do, but more often than not it isn't super-decisive). But after 10 minutes, it becomes a bit more obvious whether you would benefit from staying or not.

Saw a senior engineer from our sister team do it once, then he explained his logic to me later regarding this. At first i was afraid, thinking "ok, he is a senior engineer, he can do whatever without negative consequences, and I don't think I can afford to do it as an entry level engineer [at the time]".

One day I tried it, and never looked back. No one had any issues with it, and it had made me so much more productive. Then a new manager for my team came along, saw me do it once, and asked me about it, like "why did you do this". I explained to him the exact same reasoning as for why I was doing it. He ended up having zero issues with it after my explanation either, and had even mentioned this approach to other people on the team who were struggling with meeting overload as a recommended approach.

Re: Show HN: An app that helps engineers fight back against pointless meetings

#126

Post by atoav » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 7:58 PM UTC

f6v wrote: post #32

Programmers often think the technical aspect of the work is the most important. I’ve met many developers wannabe entrepreneurs who were convinced they had to spend as much time perfecting their app as possible instead of talking to prospective customers. We all know that doesn’t end well. What I realized over my relatively long IT career is that maybe developers just don’t get why meetings are necessary. Not saying a…

As someone who worked as a feeelancer and on film sets, as well as in teams: communication is key. But that doesn't mean this communication has to happen in a meeting.

I am not a fan of meetings, but I like a weekly meeting for a project or our department. What I don't like is pointless meetings where things are repeated that are written more concisely in the gitlab issues or in an email everybody should have read.

The point of meetings is to bring all the relevant people onto the same information level and discuss potential issues, however a lot of the more detailed stuff should be consumed beforehand individually.

Re: Show HN: An app that helps engineers fight back against pointless meetings

#127

Post by aspaceman » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 8:01 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #25

This always seems to be such a controversial view here, but if you think a meeting is pointless and that you have nothing to gain from it or contribute to it, just don't go. We're all grown-ups at work, and are ultimately responsible for our own productivity. Be prepared to articulate exactly why you feel some other use of your time is more appropriate, in case someone asks, but nobody is holding a gun to your head t…

> This always seems to be such a controversial view here, but if you think a meeting is pointless and that you have nothing to gain from it or contribute to it, just don't go. We're all grown-ups at work, and are ultimately responsible for our own productivity.

I tried doing this. Was told I need to attend more meetings. So I asked how many? They said, "it depends". "It depends on what?" "On how often we want to meet."

So whatever the hell that means. I think I need to meet every week for some reason. Just to prove 'something'

Re: Show HN: An app that helps engineers fight back against pointless meetings

#128

Post by aspaceman » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 8:04 PM UTC

1123581321 wrote: post #117

mindtricks wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add to that, if you default to the position that any meeting is pointless, you'll find yourself continually frustrated and likely wrong at times. Talk to your manager about time management and let them know where you think your time is best served. They may agree and give you the cover you need to duck out, they might revamp some meetings to be more effective, or they may just give you the context you need to have…

Or they may become offended, or cut you out of communications, or tell you their misunderstandings as if they’re true… Many organizations cannot handle discussing or even innocently questioning their communication problems openly. I would never use this calculator, for the record. There are ways to redeem the time, including trying as much as possible to make the bad meeting worthwhile.

> cut you out of communications, or tell you their misunderstandings as if they’re true…

Tell you their misunderstandings as it they're true. I really appreciate the phrasing there. Super useful for my own experience.

I would agree with this. A lot of folks retreat rapidly. One of the most common responses is "Why didn't you tell me this sooner so I could make meetings more useful?" It's a really slick deflection tactic.

I agree there are always ways to use the time better though.

Re: Show HN: An app that helps engineers fight back against pointless meetings

#129

Post by derwiki » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 8:10 PM UTC

chrsig wrote: post #46

phgn wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As engineer, I just continue working on other tasks in every single meeting. For me that multitasking works, and I don't have meeting fatigue at all. Then again, I'm not the main decision maker most of the time.

Also an engineer - I've always found this to be really disrespectful. It's not multitasking, it's ignoring the people around you. If the meeting isn't worth your undivided attention, it's better to drop the organizer a note about why you're excusing yourself from it. Making the meeting host compete feel like they're constantly competing for your attention is just really demoralizing.

Is there possibly a middle ground? If the meeting is about a big project and I have expert knowledge on a small part of that, I will often work through the meeting but stay tuned in for parts relevant to me. Spending the whole meeting in rapt attention would likely be a waste of time, but not attending at all is bad as well.

As others have said, an upfront agenda is helpful.

Re: Show HN: An app that helps engineers fight back against pointless meetings

#130

Post by ryanSrich » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 8:11 PM UTC

f6v wrote: post #69

ryanSrich wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we should make a distinction here. Client, prospect and customer meetings are absolutely necessary and you should prioritize those no matter what. Internal time wasting meetings are the pinnacle of the art of not working and should be avoided at all costs.

> Internal time wasting meetings are the pinnacle of the art of not working and should be avoided at all costs. I’m yet to experience a 100% black-and-white phenomenon in the Universe. We’re all not equal in how we see the work and how we process the information. That’s why we need to compromise and try to underhand why meetings are scheduled. Ok, suppose programmers are 100% exempt from the internal meetings. Engine…

> Ok, suppose programmers are 100% exempt from the internal meetings. Engineering managers and product owners then go ahead and just make every single decision there is. How’s that? The meetings are often used for people to sync on the progress and issues. Moreover, technical people can give their input and help non-technical ones to better understand the limitations, issues, etc.

That sounds horrendous. Those people shouldn't be making every decision. I don't know what that has to do with meetings. I'm not saying engineers should skip meetings. I'm saying abolish all internal meetings at your company. If you don't run the company then I can see how this is useless advice.

I find ad hoc "meetings" which are really just phone calls (we use Remotion at my company, it works great) to be far more useful. They aren't scheduled, so they don't take up mental space where you're dreading the meeting coming up. They aren't scheduled, so it's super easy to just say "hey I'm busy, can't talk". They aren't scheduled, so there's literally no pressure to take the call, and instead say something like "hey, can you just slack me what's happening and I can take a look in a bit?".

I also think overreliance on meetings leads to a lack of quality internal documentation, writing, and requirements gathering. If everyone is just shooting around ideas out loud, in a room, there's nothing making it on paper. I find that sitting down and actually writing out everything before I present the idea to anyone or discuss it, is far more useful than scrambling before a meeting I forgot that I had today.